New Republican denarius, looks undergraded

Discussion in 'Ancient Coins' started by svessien, Aug 3, 2020.

  1. svessien

    svessien Senior Member Supporter

    Hi everyone

    I had a coin buying session yesterday, with a.o. the Naumann auction going on.
    Got a couple of nice new coins, this one was one of them:


    Obv: Helmeted head of Roma right; quadrangular device to left.
    Rev: T MAL AP CL Q VR. Victory driving triga right.

    Crawford 299/1b.

    Condition: Near very fine.

    Weight: 3.93 g. Diameter: 18 mm.

    I think «near very fine» is a bit harsh? I would rather have said «near extremely fine», or what do you guys think?

    Anyway, it’s nice to add this coin to the collection. I like the style on the head of Roma on this issue, and it’s a nice link to good old Appius Claudius, one of the Romans not famous for war events. :)
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  3. Alegandron

    Alegandron "ΤΩΙ ΚΡΑΤΙΣΤΩΙ..." ΜΕΓΑΣ ΑΛΕΞΑΝΔΡΟΣ, June 323 BCE Supporter

    Gorgeous coin, @svessien ! I don’t really know grading, but I really like it because it's a Triga !

    TRIGA(s) - love these!

    RR Naevius Balbus 79 BCE AR Den Venus SC TRIGA Sulla S 309 Cr 382-1

    RR Pulcher Mallius Mancinus Urbinius 111-110 BCE AR Den TRIGA S 176 Cr 299-1a
    Last edited: Aug 3, 2020
  4. svessien

    svessien Senior Member Supporter

    Thanks, buddy :)
    Yes.. Very nice style on that type, I see you have one yourself.
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  5. DonnaML

    DonnaML Supporter! Supporter

    I think the coin is great, and the obverse should be at least very fine. One little scratch on Roma's cheek shouldn't affect that. The reverse may have been downgraded because of the chip (or whatever that is) on the rim at 11 o'clock, but I still like it very much. To be clear, though, I never care about the grade when I buy an an ancient coin. Only whether I like it!
  6. Clavdivs

    Clavdivs Supporter! Supporter

    I would say under graded.. beautiful coin!
    svessien likes this.
  7. medoraman

    medoraman Supporter! Supporter

    I would be around aVF-VF. Its a nice coin. Any ancient in the VF range is a nice coin. I am glad to see conservative grading. NN always has "flat" pictures of silver. I would need to see it in hand to say more. Luster, which does not show how they photograph their silver, would be critical. Much more luster could get me to gVF, but not any higher. There is visible flattening on high points of the obverse, and that flan imperfection on the reverse is a little visually disturbing. Its in the equivalent of a modern coins PFA.

    Not trying to be critical sir, just explaining how I grade and why. Like I said, and ancient around VF is a pretty coin.
    svessien likes this.
  8. medoraman

    medoraman Supporter! Supporter

    Wise sentiment. If you do not like/love a coin at first glance, it will never improve with owning it longer. My best acquisitions are those that made me stop scrolling and "behold" the coin. Those are what you remember for a long time.
    DonnaML likes this.
  9. Marsyas Mike

    Marsyas Mike Well-Known Member

    Nice coin. Mine is considerably more worn, with a banker's mark or two, but still one of my favorite Roman Republicans - I like how spirited the horses are - they must've been a handful!

    RR - Claudia 2 Pulcher Manius Urbinus Jun 2019 (0).jpg

    The fact there are three moneyers with a Q VR at the end makes this a somewhat unusual issue.

    Doug has a nice one which he posted here, with other folks providing additional information and coins:

    Roman Republic Denarius
    Appius Claudius Pulcher, T. Manlius Mancinus, Q. Urbinus
    (111-110 B.C.)
    Rome Mint

    Helmeted head of Roma right, / Victory in triga right, AP CL T MANL Q VR in exergue.
    Crawford 299/1a; Sydenham 570; Claudia 2.
    (3.85 grams / 18 mm)
  10. svessien

    svessien Senior Member Supporter

    I agree with the explanation. Knowing their photos, I’m expecting a solid VF coin. But you never know until you have it in hand:)
    DonnaML likes this.
  11. svessien

    svessien Senior Member Supporter

    There are quite a few issues with both 3 and 4 moneyers in that period. It’s quite interesting, I agree.
    I like your worn coins:) They have been put to use!
    Marsyas Mike likes this.
  12. Mr.Q

    Mr.Q Well-Known Member

    I agree very nice coin.
    svessien likes this.
  13. NewStyleKing

    NewStyleKing Beware of Greeks bearing wreaths Supporter

    A lot of slaves were degraded making my coins and seem to be on their last legs when striking. If this was a Morgan type the grading label wouldn't be big enough to record the misery of every pointless bump and scrape .
    svessien likes this.
  14. Limes

    Limes Supporter! Supporter

    Nice catch @svessien! I don't understand grading all that much, but it's really a nice coin. Did you get this one from the Naumann auction? It was a tough auction again for me, the coins I was aiming at went way over my budget. (Which could also mean there's something wrong with my budget :))
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  15. svessien

    svessien Senior Member Supporter

    Thanks, Limes!
    I got it from Naumann, yes. It was an auction with a lot of varying price levels, I think. Some coins went really high. I bid on those that didn’t, and that I wanted for my collection. I also picked up this:


    Diocletian argentus, Nicomedia mint.
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  16. svessien

    svessien Senior Member Supporter

    That’s making the grade in a very poetic way, @NewStyleKing :) Duly noted.
    NewStyleKing likes this.
  17. dougsmit

    dougsmit Member Supporter

    Since MM saved me the trouble of posting mine, I'll just add that I like trigas, too. I trust everyone noticed that the coin exists with moneyers listed in different order. For this reason, I suggest those in the market for one look for an example with clear legends like svessien's excellent coin which strikes me as near VF. It has less wear than my example but we can differ on how much to count that chip over victory's head. That is the deal with ancients: Every coin is different and even the best ones tend to have some little 'problem' with condition, strike or style. People who believe their coin is perfect tend to overlook something that someone else noted to the point that they avoided the coin.
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  18. Romancollector

    Romancollector Well-Known Member

    Nice additions @svessien ! ;)

    I got blown out of the water on the coin I really wanted...It went for 2.5x my max :(

    I almost pulled the trigger on the other argenteus from Nicomedia, but decided I would wait for a higher grade example.
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  19. Valentinian

    Valentinian Supporter! Supporter

    I think it doesn't matter what the grade is called. We see the picture. If the picture is like the coin, that is what the coin is like. This is not the US coin forum where the grade is more important than the coin. I'd like to think that in the ancients forum the coin is more important than the grade.
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  20. Alegandron

    Alegandron "ΤΩΙ ΚΡΑΤΙΣΤΩΙ..." ΜΕΓΑΣ ΑΛΕΞΑΝΔΡΟΣ, June 323 BCE Supporter

    Nailed it. I like that approach to grading.
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  21. zumbly

    zumbly Ha'ina 'ia mai ana ka puana Supporter

    Nice score! Mine is a Maximianus, but the same workshop, and perhaps the same die engraver?

    Maximianus - Argenteus Victoriae Sarmatica 2326 b.jpg
    AR Argenteus. 3.11g, 17.9mm. Nicomedia mint, circa AD 295-296. RIC VI Nicomedia 25b; RSC 553c. O: MAXIMIANVS AVG, laureate head right. R: VICTORIAE SARMATICAE, campgate with four turrets, doors open, and star above archway; SMNΓ in exergue.
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