New Daniel Carr Morgan Dollar

I have bought from him the Mercury and Walker and also the Standing Liberty. Them coins are OK, I think I will not spend anymore money toward them fantasy coins. Rather get the real thing is much better.

 

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So only portions of these laws apply?

 

You are not paying attention. The statutes clearly set out separate offenses for production and possession/uttering. The former does not require an intent to defraud element while the latter (possession/uttering) requires an intent to defraud to run afoul of the statutes. That is clear.

 

Translation for you: These are legal to possess for your personal collection even if not legal to produce.

 

Here comes the merry-go-round. I get the green horse!

 

Thanks for the translation dude, but I already got it.

 

This video made me hungry for lamb.

 

Starting in 1998 and ending in July 2009--nearly two years after federal officials raided the group’s headquarters in Evansville, Indiana--NORFED and subsequently Liberty Services exchanged Liberty Dollars for federal reserve notes, with the intent to mix Liberty Dollars into the money supply of the United States to actively compete with U.S. currency. Von NotHaus’ leadership of both Liberty Services and NORFED officially ended on or around September 30, 2008.

Gee, it sounds like "Intent to defraud" to me.

 

A respected member of this board once wrote of an experience at a show where someone, wishing to sell it, insisted one of Mr. Carr's copies was the real deal. With all due respect, sir; would you, possibly without knowing who this member is, consider him a liar? I do not personally know the gentleman or his feelings on the matter (so I won't drag him into this), but if you wish to search hard enough his post could be found in the archives.

As for the "crap", sir; how often, even on this board, do you see people without a clue doing stupid things? How many times per week do threads appear in which a majority all pile on a seller assuming they're trying to defraud the poor collector? Can you, approaching this objectively and not subjectively, honestly say you think Carr's copies are somehow exempt, perhaps by magic? Yes, to his credit he puts identifying information out there for anyone willing to seek it, but because he refuses to properly mark his copies, it puts them in the same category as most everything else in the hobby that requires either knowledge or a willingness to research in order to properly identify/attribute it, and is as simple as that. He could most easily ensure, short the otherworldly stupid, such a thing could not happen but chooses not to. This is key.

The fact that someone could be taken advantage of is not now nor has it ever been an issue for me, but the idea that it could never happen is ludicrous and is why I've argued this before. Carr, simply because some will it and wish to apply different standards, isn't an exception.

Indeed.

 

<obligatory "all this talk about DC tokens is gonna make me buy one now. Thanks fellers!">

 

I don't like what the NORFED people did, but they openly announced their intent to create an alternative currency as it sought for a repeal of the Federal Reserve (and IRS). It never held out the items to be genuine U.S. coin or currency. I don't see the intent to defraud although, of course, intent to defraud wasn't necessary to go after him for the production of the pieces but it would for his attempted uttering of an alternate currency.

 

I dont mean any disrespect and im sure youll have an answer but as I looked through his fantasy pieces, they are just that, fantasy. The mint has stated a 1964 morgan does not exist. Nor does a 1964 peace dollar. Nor does a 1909 Morgan. Why should he lable these pieces as copies when he isnt copying anything? The mint never made those coins in those years.

We live in a time when any moron can google anything. How hard is it to learn that a Morgan dollar was not made in 1909?? And im sure we can rely on the fine members on this site to set any noobie straight if they believe that a Carr fantasy is in fact real.

Ignorance isnt something that shouldnt be catered to like a handicap. Im not gonna take advantage of anyone. But if someone is too lazy to research all aspects of this hobby, then I dont feel sorry for them. And Daniel Carr shouldnt be responsible for someone's stupidity.

Again no disrespect. Just giving my opinion.

 

Because the law says he is required to do so. There is a FTC opinion specifically addressing the "fantasy" date scenario that was excerpted a page or two (or so) back in this thread.

 

Yeah and when anyone Google's the date it goes far beyond simply finding out it was never minted. It shows that they do exist as Dan Carr fantasy pieces with many examples of real world prices. The HPA, even if one wants to construe it's meaning to apply it to his work, was created loooong before the internet let alone smartphones and Google and eBay etc where firm knowledge is a litteral click away

 

So you're advocating for ignoring the HPA because you believe it is outdated? So by analogy, since I find the entire Internal Revenue Service code to be outdated, am I free to ignore it? I never liked the IRS definition of "income" anyway.

 

That's how you interpreted that. Wow.

And there's nothing to ignore. Why don't you get that

 

Note that the Norfed "Liberty Dollars" were not manufactured by Bernard Von Nothaus.
They were produced for him by Sunshine Minting. Sunshine Minting was never charged with any crime, nor did they have any of their equipment or materials confiscated.

 

The FTC opinion regarding "fantasy" coins specifically cited a court case, which involved Gold Bullion International (GBI).

GBI was producing German Wilhelm gold coins with fantasy dates. But those were not over-strikes (alterations) to genuine coins. They were struck on virgin gold blanks and then deceptively marketed as actual German mint coins.

So the GBI pieces were not alterations to genuine coins, and they were produced with fraudulent intent.

 

If you are referring to the In Re Gold Bullion decision, it specifically noted that the items were sold with disclosure and as restrikes. The commission also rejected the argument that consulting the Krause catalog (i.e. basically the Red Book of world coins) was sufficient to alert potential purchasers and that the marking requirement applied. Look to the excerpted part of the decision in this thread. You can also pull the entire decision from the FTC bound volumes on the FTC website and read the entire thing for yourself (including the cease and desist order and the FTC official opinion).

 

Wasn't Sunshine Minting merely his corporate alter ego that largely stored the contraband? If not, the entire case is bizarre because he was convicted of making, possessing, and selling his own coins and the court opinion specifically addressed the production aspect. I didn't see anywhere in the pleadings where he disavowed producing these? Where was his lawyer?

P.S. The government press release also makes reference to conviction for producing counterfeit pieces.

https://archives.fbi.gov/archives/c...fendant-convicted-of-minting-his-own-currency