Featured Nemausus Crocs & that time Agrippa got punched in the nose/Agrippa had his face between some DDs

Discussion in 'Ancient Coins' started by Ryro, Jul 29, 2020.

  1. Ryro

    Ryro You'll never be lovelier than you are now... Supporter

    Just received a new bit of fun today in the mail!
    This is my 3rd Col Nems Chained Crocodile type with Augustus and his #1 general Marcus Agrippa BFF:
    share5189771613399980577.png
    Nemausus Augustus Agrippa Crocodile 10,71 G/26 mm

    I bought it primarily due to the countermark in front of/on Agrippa's nose! It may be "DD", Decreto Decurionum (The Decree). Though, it doesn't look entirely like the standard DD. Here are my DDs below (hopefully you wont be disappointed):

    20190420_115440_A8F522B4-C510-4BB2-98C1-4DD67BD06CED-359-0000001214712A9A.png
    Augustus
    Hispania, Julia Traducta. 27 B.C.-A.D. 14 Æ 25 (24.9 mm, 10.27 g, 4 h). PERM CAES AVG, bare head left / IVLIA TRAD, in two lines within wreath.
    Countermarked “DD” (Decreto Decurionum) RPC 108; SNG Copenhagen 459.

    It looks more to me to be the much more rare "PP", Pater Patriae (Father of the country). I have no examples of the "PP" to share.

    Here is a pic from my phone which kind of makes it look like the double Ds, but for the fact that the countermarks circle is much larger than just the DD, you can sort of see a P's tail on left and then a curious H or T below the second P/D on the right:

    20200729_153005.jpg

    In hopes of getting a better look at the lower half of the countermark I broke out a contraption that my Dad got me a while ago for an extreme close up:
    wayne.gif
    (No. Not that kind of extreme close-up)

    20200729_121237.jpg
    (I meant to share a picture of this contraption in Doug's thread but had it packed away...until I needed it this afternoon)

    This kind:

    20200729_142232.jpg
    I can't make heads nor croc tails of it. But I am still really geeked to have it.

    If you are interested in learning more about the coin type, I can think of doing you no better favor than sharing our own @dougsmit 's web page on these: http://www.forumancientcoins.com/dougsmith/impossible.html
    (Hopefully Doug is cool with me sharing his handy work and doesn't want to countermark me in the nose!)

    Speaking of these types, here are my other 2 (OK, 1 and a half):
    20190327_131125_3583B951-6AD6-4870-9B79-328F5BBDA908-469-0000006A5CA46CEA.png
    Augustus with Agrippa
    Roman Provincial
    Gaul, Nemausus. 27 BCE-CE 14 Æ dupondius CE 10-14. IMP DIVI F, P-P, back to back heads of Augustus and Agrippa / COL NEM, crocodile chained to palm branch, wreath above . RPC 525; RIC 160. aVF.


    20190610_145011_403C6D12-9EB9-4AD3-BBDA-D997E890386A-2352-000002BE473A5937.png
    Augustus (27 BC-AD 14), with Marcus Agrippa (died 12 BC). Æ halved dupondius (26mm, 7.10 gm). Gaul, Nemausus, AD 10-14. IMP DIVI F P - P, adduced head of Agrippa wearing rostral crown / COL - NEM, crocodile chained to palm tree, two further palm branches below crocodile. RPC 525. RIC 159. A outstanding portrait.

    The left-facing bust on this attractive issue of Nemausus (modern Nimes) depicts Marcus Vipsanius Agrippa, perhaps history's greatest sidekick. He was born in 63 BC, the same year as Gaius Octavius, with whom he struck up a close friendship in adolescence. Octavius recognized Agrippa's remarkable qualities as a soldier and
    statesman and relied heavily on him to put his various plans into action. Agrippa's mastery of strategy secured the naval victory over Sextus Pompey at Naulochus in 36 BC, and the defeat of Mark Antony and Cleopatra at Actium five years later. After Octavian assumed the title of Augustus in 27 BC, Agrippa was clearly regarded as second-in-command and the likely heir to the throne. His many building projects, financed out of his own purse, helped transform Rome from a city of brick to one of marble, and his commemorative inscriptions survive on many important monuments, including the Pantheon. His name continued to be revered long after his death. coin, struck two decades later, attests

    upload_2020-7-29_16-10-21.png

    I would love to hear any theories or thoughts on my new coins countermark, see all of your types of this EXTREMELY popular coin, curious countermarks or anything else that makes one learn or laugh!
     
    Last edited: Jul 29, 2020
  2. Avatar

    Guest User Guest



    to hide this ad.
  3. Mat

    Mat Ancient Coincoholic

    My only one.

    [​IMG]
    Augustus, with Agrippa (27. B.C. 14 A.D.)
    GAUL, Nemausus
    Æ As
    O: Heads of Agrippa left, wearing rostral crown and laurel wreath, and Augustus right, wearing oak wreath, back to back. IMP above, DIVI F below.
    R: Crocodile right chained to palm branch with long vertical fronds; above, wreath with long ties, palms below; COL NEM flanking vertical palm.
    Nemausus mint, 9-3 B.C
    10.26g
    27mm
    RPC I 524; RIC 1 158
     
  4. Alegandron

    Alegandron "ΤΩΙ ΚΡΑΤΙΣΤΩΙ..." ΜΕΓΑΣ ΑΛΕΞΑΝΔΡΟΣ, June 323 BCE Supporter

    Cool coin, @Ryro ! I would had snared it for the countermark, also. Neat one, but NO CLUE as to what it is. From a distance, it looks like an opposing face.

    Love the Cannibalism pic!


    upload_2020-7-29_17-36-59.png
    RI
    Augustus oak crown Agrippa rostral crown L
    AE Dupondius
    26mm 12.6g T
    ype III
    9-3 BCE Nemausus chained Croc wreaths
    RIC I 158
     
  5. Kentucky

    Kentucky Supporter! Supporter

    [​IMG]

    I have one of these I could never get to work.
     
    Broucheion, Ryro, ominus1 and 5 others like this.
  6. Ryro

    Ryro You'll never be lovelier than you are now... Supporter

    Thanks my man! I am really leaning towards the rare PP. But DDs are always a good thing. Especially when you snag them on eBay for $26!
    Though, I would trade you straight up for that beauty of yours! LOVE your portraits AND you have the full croc! Very nice:cigar:
     
    kevin McGonigal and Alegandron like this.
  7. AncientJoe

    AncientJoe Supporter! Supporter

    My obligatory COL NEM which I haven't posted for a while:

    COLNEM.jpg
     
  8. TIF

    TIF Well that didn't last long :D Supporter

    AJ's coin is ferocious! Run, lesser examples... run!


    AJ-FerociousNemausus.jpg


    My first COL NEM came from a super fun large lot of Ptolemaic bronzes pedigreed to the 1800s, purchased primarily for a 48 mm bronze. In addition the Ptolemaic bronzes there were a few other coins including this one. I didn't know what it was at first glance because I was trying to make a galley out of the crocodile :D.

    [​IMG]
    Augustus & Agrippa
    Gaul, Nemausus, c. CE 10-14
    AE dupondius
    Obv: IMP/DIVI F P-P, back-to-back heads of Agrippa, in combined rostral crown & laurel wreath, and Augustus, laureate
    Rev: COL-NEM, long, vertical palm with crocodile chained below, wreath to left of palm tip with ties trailing to right
    Ref: RIC 160
    ex Professor James R. Eaton (1834-1897) Collection; this coin was in his family until I purchased it from Stack's.

    These are such fantastic story coins that I had to get a better one several years later:

    [​IMG]
    Augustus & Agrippa
    Gaul, Nemausus, c. 10 BCE - CE 10
    AE dupondius
    Obv: IMP/DIVI; heads of Agrippa to left, wearing combined rostral crown and laurel wreath, and of Augustus to right, wearing oak wreath, back to back
    Rev: COL-NEM; long, vertical palm with crocodile chained below, wreath to left of palm tip with ties trailing to right; two palm fronds below
    Ref: RIC 158; AMC 425; Cohen 10; RPC 524
     
  9. Ryro

    Ryro You'll never be lovelier than you are now... Supporter

    giphy-16.gif
    My obligatory Waynes World gif:happy:. I mean, I did a WW reference on the thread aaand that coin is off the chain (chained crocodile pun intended).
    I read, as your exquisite:artist: coin shows, that possibly coins after "The Decree" indicated by DDs countermark, have the PPs, one on each side. But for a short time, inbetween, they countermarked the PP...I believe my coin is one of these PPs.
    Which makes me wonder, what specific decree and when did it take place:pompous:?
    My best guess would be at the very beginning, after the civil wars, 27 BCE (ish)?
     
  10. DonnaML

    DonnaML Supporter! Supporter

    I have a feeling that it's not a coincidence that the crocodile on the COL NEM coin is shaped very much like a galley.

    Here's my one COL-NEM coin:

    Augustus AE (Brass) Dupondius, 9-3 BCE, Colonia Augusta Nemausus [Nîmes] (Galla Narbonensis province) Mint. Obv. Heads of Agrippa left and Augustus right, back to back, with Agrippa wearing combined laurel wreath and rostral crown, and Augustus wearing oak wreath [RIC & OCRE; Sear GIC] or laurel wreath [RPC; Sear RCV], IMP above heads and DIVI F below [Imperator Divi Filius] / Rev. Crocodile right standing on two palm branches, chained to palm-shoot standing behind it, with tip of shoot leaning to right; wreath above and to left of palm-shoot, with long ties extending behind shoot to right, COL - NEM to left and right of palm-shoot. “Type III” of Augustus & Agrippa/Crocodile coin (see https://multicollec.net/1-mo-h/1h04). RIC I 158 (p. 52) (see http://numismatics.org/ocre/id/ric.1(2).aug.158 ), RPC I 524 (see
    https://rpc.ashmus.ox.ac.uk/coins/1/524 ), Sear Greek Imperial Coins 157 (D. Sear, Greek Imperial Coins and their Values (1982)], Sear RCV I 1730 (ill.). [See Sear RCV I at p. 337: Commemorates conquest of Egypt in 30 BCE; influenced by Augustus’s settlement of veterans of Egyptian campaign in Nemausus after colony was founded in 27 BCE.] 28 mm., 12.09 g.

    Before soaking in distilled water:

    Augustus-Agrippa Dupondius.jpg

    The reverse after soaking for a while. I'm not sure it made that much difference. Perhaps one can see the crocodile's snout and a couple of teeth a bit better.

    Augustus-Agrippa COL NEM Rev 3.jpg
     
    Last edited: Jul 30, 2020
  11. Bing

    Bing Illegitimi non carborundum Supporter

  12. Collect89

    Collect89 Coin Collector

    3DA69544-8067-4863-8A68-7D8669B7C497.jpeg
    D3B54808-8F3E-434F-9685-02D665584DD0.jpeg
    GAUL, Nemausus
    Augustus & Agrippa
    AE Dupondius
    20 BC to 14 AD
    10.7 grams, 25 mm
    Obv: Laurelate Caesar Augustus r. (on right) with Marcus Agrippa wearing rostral crown l. (on left) IMP above DIVI below.
    Rev. Crocodile r. chained to a palm, a wreath with long ties above. COL-NEM.
    Grade: Overall a good fine coin with nice patina and lower obverse lettering running off the flan.
     
  13. Alegandron

    Alegandron "ΤΩΙ ΚΡΑΤΙΣΤΩΙ..." ΜΕΓΑΣ ΑΛΕΞΑΝΔΡΟΣ, June 323 BCE Supporter

    Run, lesser examples... run!


    [​IMG]


    Heh-heh-heeeh... l see MY croc is furthest away! :)

    He’ll be there to fight another day...
     
  14. Roman Collector

    Roman Collector Supporter! Supporter

    Here you go!

    [​IMG]
    Augustus with Agrippa, 27 BC - AD 14.
    Roman Æ as, 12.99 g, 26.3 mm, 4 h.
    Nemausus, after 16/15 BC.
    Obv: IMP/DIVI F, heads back to back of Augustus, right, bare, and Agrippa, left, wearing rostral crown.
    Rev: COL-NEM to left and right of palm shoot, its tip to right, behind chained crocodile; two wreaths above palm tip.
    Refs: RIC 155; RPC 523; Cohen 7; AMC 411; RCV 1729.
    Notes: Sear (p. 338) notes this initial revival of the Nemausian series on a lighter weight standard is probably to be associated with Augustus' visit to Gaul in 16 BC.
     
  15. cmezner

    cmezner Supporter! Supporter

    @Bing I like very much your COL NEM:happy:. Is it one of the very first type, that is type I, which was issued for a very short time? Can you share the weight?
     
    Alegandron likes this.
  16. Bing

    Bing Illegitimi non carborundum Supporter

    Sure. I have the attribution as:

    AUGUSTUS
    AE Dupondius
    OBVERSE: IMP DIVI F, back-to-back heads of Agrippa, wearing rostral crown, & Augustus, bare head
    REVERSE: COL NEM, crocodile chained to palm, wreath with long ties trailing above
    Nemausus (Gaul) 20-10 BC
    13.1g, 26mm
    RIC 155
     
  17. dougsmit

    dougsmit Member Supporter

    http://www.forumancientcoins.com/dougsmith/impossible.html
    When I wrote my page on these (above) I was convinced that there was no perfect coin and ran four that I had at that time through a point by point ranking. Joe's coin is most certainly a wonderful specimen with only one fault that bothers me. Agrippa was a naval hero. His portrait on this type shows him with a rostral crown.
    My best specimen has this feature off flan. So does Joe's.
    pb0042bb3019.jpg
    That does not mean I prefer TIF's 2nd or Collect89's coins but they do have nice rostral crowns. The other feature I really prefer is the chain showing that the croc is a captive. Joe's coin is wonderful in this regard.

    I spent a few months really searching for these and failing to find coins in my price bracket or double that range that struck me as well balanced. Instead of getting one nice coin, I ended up trying for coins that showed one important feature and one from each of the three major periods.
    The first has Augustus bare headed and the scrawny croc shows teeth pointing up from the snout.
    pb0025fd3041.jpg
    Second we see Augustus with a laurel wreath which can be seen even on worn specimens from the ties behind his neck. Most coins I saw were from this middle period.
    pb0034bb3124.jpg
    The last group added PP to the obverse. I only have one of these and paid too much for the weak strike but really liked the smooth patina. On these, you have to make choices.
    pb0045bb3018.jpg

    I also lack a countermarked coin never seeing one that struck my fancy. The other thing to collect on these is halved coins made for change. Since the dies were not oriented in a consistent way, you can get coins with the croc head behind either of the men or straight across showing most of the croc and none of the tree or vice-versa. I never bought one with the croc head behind Agrippa or one with all the top and no croc. Do note that it is possible to place the coins into the early, middle or late periods even from halves.
    early with teeth up
    pb0040bb2251.jpg
    middle with ties behind Augustus' neck pb0033bb3020.jpg late with P under chin
    pb0046bb3017.jpg
     
    Last edited: Jul 30, 2020
  18. Cucumbor

    Cucumbor Dombes collector Supporter

    It's always a pleasure to share my crocs


    [​IMG]
    Augustus & Agrippa, AE halved dupondius - Nemausus, after 10 BC
    3rd type
    [IM]P [DI]VI F , Laureate head of Augustus right
    [COL NEM], Crocodile chained to palm tree
    6.70 gr
    Ref : RCV #1730, Cohen # 10


    The following one is about to be sallowed by AJ's example on @TIF's picture :
    [​IMG]
    Augustus & Agrippa, AE Dupondius - Nemausus mint, after AD 10
    4th type
    IMP DIVI F PP, Laureate heads of Augustus and Agrippa back to back
    COL NEM, Crocodile chained to palm tree
    12.84 gr
    Ref : RCV #1731, Cohen #8


    [​IMG]
    Augustus & Agrippa, AE Dupondius - Nemausus mint, after AD 10
    4th type
    IMP DIVI F PP, Laureate heads of Augustus looking right and Agrippa looking left, back to back
    COL NEM, Crocodile chained to palm tree
    13,52 gr
    Ref : RCV #1731, Cohen #8

    Q
     
    Last edited: Jul 30, 2020
  19. kevin McGonigal

    kevin McGonigal Well-Known Member

    Great write up and following articles. I have always felt that these two guys, who literally on these Nemausus coins had each others backs, should always be paired with one another as I don't think either one could have succeeded in their achievements without the other. Agrippa was Octavian's fireman, rushing from brush fire to forest fire to rescue Octavian Augustus, whether it be winning naval battles (inventing the harpax catapult to help do that) or producing heirs for Augustus, Gaius, Lucius and Postumus) , designing and building, roads, aqueducts and the original Pantheon, and putting up with Augustus' less than faithful daughter as his spouse.

    As for these coins, I wonder since so many collectors have one or two of them, if they could enlighten posters here about these coins. What was their value? Were they an as or a dupondius? Are they brass or bronze? Where did they circulate, only in Gallia or over a larger region? In what part of the empire do they show up as stray losses or in hoards, if any? The PP on the obverse, is this Pater Patriae (singular) for one of the two men) or Patres Patriae (plural) for both of them? Any suggestions on answers much appreciated. My two humble contributions.

    IMG_1475[5989]Two Agrippas.jpg
     
  20. kevin McGonigal

    kevin McGonigal Well-Known Member

    Nice example
    Simply beautiful.
     
    Ryro likes this.
  21. Terence Cheesman

    Terence Cheesman Supporter! Supporter

    I guess I will add my modest specimen to the feeding frenzy. Augustus & Agrippa Ae Dupondius or As Nemausus 9/8-3 B.C. Obv. heads of Agrippa and Augustus. Rv Crocodile chained to palm shoot right. RIC 158 RPC 524 12.51 grms 25mm Photo by W. Hansen augustusnem3.jpg
     
Draft saved Draft deleted

Share This Page