Need some sage advice....

Discussion in 'Ancient Coins' started by panzerman, Feb 16, 2018.

  1. harley bissell

    harley bissell Well-Known Member

    SIMPLY PUT - Two butterflys mate and make more butterflys. Two gold coins do
    not mate and make more gold coins. Keep some back for breeders and air mail
    your trade for the coin.
     
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  3. panzerman

    panzerman Well-Known Member

    I have no idea, this man was introduced to me by a Montreal insect dealer. Basically he wanted to exchange coins for my collection. My collection was well known in the insectnet crowd. So he sends photos of what he has in trade, to make future deals. I knew one coll. in Indiana who collected British Colonial stamps, sold them for $ to buy butterflies, then with the USFW crackdown, decided to sell his bugs, for you guessed it....British Colonial stamps. Now he is selling his stamps for bugs....I will definately have an expert here, when actual trade takes place to make sure coins are the real deal. I have gotten all of my coins from auctions (where they are checked for authencity) but any private dealings.....one must be carefull not to get burned.
     
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  4. panzerman

    panzerman Well-Known Member

    Correct, but some are exceedingly rare in nature. One French collector travelled to Bioko Is. (Equatorial Guinea) 13 times @ trip costing 10K euros. He caught some rare endemic papilionidae, one graphium flavisparsus (15 known) he got 3 males/ one was perfect quality. These go for 6K euros.....still spent 130K on trip/expenses. Not easy.
     
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  5. AncientJoe

    AncientJoe Well-Known Member

    Absolutely. Be careful - the whole deal seems suspicious to me, especially when he paid $100K four years ago for a coin he's now selling for $60K in trade. Definitely ensure that the coins you're getting are exactly what you're expecting.

    On the Numerian aureus in question, that was at the height of some of the Russian bidders buying up Roman gold so the price is higher than it would be in today's market where aurei are a bit weaker. I'd also like to point out a pretty deep gouge behind the portrait before the legend on the obverse. Perhaps that's why NAC estimated it only at 25K. Between that and the mark on the neck/other scattered marks around the border, I definitely wouldn't grade it FDC. It is a very attractive coin but it'd be worth ensuring you're going to be happy with it.
     
  6. panzerman

    panzerman Well-Known Member

    Thats why I sought advice from experienced collectors as yourself. I know that an NAC coin (Gratian) solidus they had as FDC was re-graded CNG auction as a CH-EF later on. A CNG grade is always reliable. One must always be carefull, esp. when dealing in large monetary amounts. I can still remember the NFA auction, where some of the ultimate rare aurei turned out to be fakes...ouch. There was a aureus from Ahenobarbus as an example of that.
    John
     
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  7. Theodosius

    Theodosius Fine Style Seeker

    Have you ever traded with this person before and gotten authentic coins?

    I would be careful because his story about when he bought them when they appear to have been sold again more recently does not seem to add up...

    Sounds like someone searching the old sales and offering a coin from back then when the same coin sold more recently.

    John
     
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  8. IdesOfMarch01

    IdesOfMarch01 Well-Known Member

    My thoughts about this exchange tend to mirror most of the other comments posted here:

    1. The coin sold for close to $100K (if you include buyer's fees) in 2014; why would your friend sell it for $60K worth of butterflies? Surely he can research this coin's value on the Internet.

    2. NAC's auction description doesn't list the alleged 2002 Sotheby's sale at which your friend purchased it; why not?

    3. If it was sold in 2014 (the coin you picture above is clearly the same coin that was sold in the 2014 NAC auction), why does your friend still own it?

    While I have purchased coins from individuals, I ALWAYS do it through my dealer who can verify the coin's authenticity and provenance.

    My advice is to find a knowledgeable and honest dealer, have him physically present for the transaction, and pay him a 3% - 5% fee for his expertise.
     
  9. Nyatii

    Nyatii I like running w/scissors. Makes me feel dangerous

    When I was much younger, I watched someone drop a very expensive piece of crystal. I imprinted on me that things I own of any great value, should not be fragile. Seems Butterflies would be quite fragile and take maintenance. The coin if correct value and authenticity would be easier to store and maintain. You would be better on determining if they coin would be worth more in the future, and give you more or equal satisfaction.
     
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  10. Richard M. Renneboog

    Richard M. Renneboog Active Member

    Ooooh! The 'plot' thickens...
     
  11. panzerman

    panzerman Well-Known Member

    I am thankfull for all the great advice. Ancient Joe made great point that the NAC example sold way over estimate. So, when you add up all things to ponder....

    A/ coin is not FDC/ probably would be EF for CNG
    B/ coin sold for inflated amt., way over realistic valuation.
    C/ coins authencity is also not 100 percent.

    My fellow coinclub member here, a well known dealer had the same conclusions. Maybe its better to get actual cash for bugs, use that money in upcoming auctions to secure nice coins. But, I will see this coin in the flesh, when he comes down next week. I will definately want to see the old auction tags, data on piece. I know a FDC Numerian aureus sold in CNG Triton VII for 24K. BUT it was FDC/ also unpublished/unique.
     
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  12. lordmarcovan

    lordmarcovan Eclectic & Eccentric Moderator

    How many different rulers/personalities do you have on aurei, now?

    I couldn't afford one solitary, low-end aureus.

    (Well, OK, maybe one or two common types in acceptable circulated grade, if I sold ALL my other stuff.)
     
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  13. panzerman

    panzerman Well-Known Member

    If I would sell all my world gold coinage, I would have enough $ to purchase 30 or so in FDC quality(common Emperors/Empresses) BUT I love my world stuff....
    Right now only 15 aurei (all mintstate) but more or less common types/ except for a R-4 Constantius I Chlorus FDC =ext. rare. I have WAY more solidi of Eastern/Western Emperors/Empresses (45) all MS quality. That is why I am in the poorhouse.....spent it all on coins.But, what a ride:shame:
    John
    PS: Best deal ever was $4000 for a FDC Severus Alexander from Harlen Berk.
     
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  14. Whizb4ng

    Whizb4ng HIC SVNT DRACONES

    Completely off topic since I can't even begin giving advice since we are punching way above my level but can I see some pictures of your butterflies? They sound super neat. You may have posted them before and I just missed them. When I was in Ecuador I brought a couple inexpensive ones back for my sister.
     
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  15. panzerman

    panzerman Well-Known Member

    I will be glad to do that.
     

    Attached Files:

  16. Whizb4ng

    Whizb4ng HIC SVNT DRACONES

    Those are so cool! Thank you.

    Do you have to do anything specific for storage? Like keep them in a cool, dark, and dry place or are they sealed in pretty tight? Would exposure to sunlight affect the colour over time?
     
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  17. panzerman

    panzerman Well-Known Member

    I will try again...
    1/ o. paradisea paradisea abberation PNG
    2/ o. alexandrae alexandrae endangered Popondetta/ PNG
    3/ 0. victoriae regis abberation Solomon Is.
    4/ o. aesacus Obi Is./Moluccas
    all male specimens/ females are drab..... 06f91c5084bd665231f2568ac8f7ffb1.jpg 8edc3c2d92f904f4ff56c762ccc1fd44.jpg 549dd91b4f623f0fa660e7354e7740e8.jpg ec3f151c894367fe1ddb4b1e5d1978ce.jpg
     
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  18. Eduard

    Eduard Supporter**

    Now, let's see: 30+ aureii in FDC at $15K+ a pop makes about......$$$$!!!!!!:woot::woot::woot:
    Plus, 15 aureii in FDC + 45 solidii in MS makes ............$$ !!!:woot::woot:

    My dear friend, where do I apply to be considered for adoption by you ?
    (I am nice and and can even cook):):):):).
     
  19. TIF

    TIF Always learning.

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  20. panzerman

    panzerman Well-Known Member

    These are all ornitoptera/ or birdwing butterflies, endemic to Papua New Guinea/ Irian Jaya/ surrounding Islands/ Bismark Archipelago/ Solomons ....
    First three are all 10K+++ on marketplace. Japanese collectors go gaga over rare abberations.
     
  21. panzerman

    panzerman Well-Known Member

    Reverses are not that pretty, however some moths/ butterflies have amazing reverse designs.
    the females in most cases have fatter bodies, drab coloration, while the males are extremely colorfull, more slim bodies:shame:
     
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