Need Help: Macrinus & Dionysos from Deultum, Thrace

Discussion in 'Ancient Coins' started by Marsyas Mike, Dec 5, 2021.

  1. Marsyas Mike

    Marsyas Mike Well-Known Member

    Hoping a Thrace or Deultum expert can help me with this one.

    Here is Macrinus with Dionysos and a panther at his feet left (not clear in my photo, but she's there). The type is readily found, except all of them I see have a cuirassed bust (Wildwinds, acsearch, etc.). Mine seems to be just a RADIATE (corrected! Thanks @TIF) head, and although I found several heads like this from Deultum, not with a Dionysos reverse.

    Here is mine (7.72 grams / 22 x 21 mm):

    Deultum Thrace - Macrinus Dionysios Nov 2021 (0a).jpg

    Here is the Wildwinds cuirassed version, with description:

    Deultum, Thrace - Macrinus cuirassed Dionysos standing Varb. 2076 - Wildwinds pic.jpg

    Macrinus, AE24 of Deultum, Thrace. AD 217-218. 7.86 g.
    IMP C M OPEL SEV MACRINVS AV, radiate, cuirassed bust right / COL FL PAC DEVLT, Dionysos, naked, standing left, holding kantharos and thyrsos, panther at foot left.
    Varbanov 2076 (this coin); Jurukova 59; Burstein Coll. 392.

    Here's a pretty green one from cgbfr:

    Deultum, Thrace - Macrinus cuirassed Dionysos standing ACBP 5343 var - cgbfr pic.jpg,bpv_456440,a.html

    Any help would be much appreciated. Thank you! :)
    Last edited: Dec 5, 2021
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  3. furryfrog02

    furryfrog02 Well-Known Member

    Glad you got that one :)
    I was watching it but decided not to bid :)
    Marsyas Mike likes this.
  4. Marsyas Mike

    Marsyas Mike Well-Known Member

    Well I'm glad you restrained yourself! I was kind of surprised I didn't get any competition on this one - a cheap Macrinus is like catnip to me! It is surprising how difficult it has been to attribute, which is kind of fun, kind of frustrating.
    furryfrog02 likes this.
  5. furryfrog02

    furryfrog02 Well-Known Member

    Honestly, that's why I didn't pull the trigger. I couldn't find a good attribution.
  6. tenbobbit

    tenbobbit Well-Known Member

    Yours appears to be a Reverse match with the Wildwinds example.

    It will require a member with better skills than me to confirm if it is an unlisted variety, maybe @Jochen1 can help ?

    What i can say is this, you will find many reverses used with a single Obverse die.
    This does open up the possibility for a new pairing to turn up.

    When i saw the Obverse on your coin i immediately thought of the Wolf & Twins type, there are other Reverses paired with it so it makes sense for it to exist.

    Sorry i can't help more, it would be a bonus though if it is unlisted :cool:
    furryfrog02 and Marsyas Mike like this.
  7. Marsyas Mike

    Marsyas Mike Well-Known Member

    Thank you for your attention to this! I knew you had a Macrinus focus to your collecting and was hoping you'd see this post.

    I'm beginning to wonder about the obverse die match with other reverses - I haven't gone that far yet (and I have another quite large project I am working on at the moment too, as you know! :) )
  8. TIF

    TIF Always learning.

    Is this a typo? Yours has a radiate head like the Wildwinds example. The obverse isn't a die match to the Wildwinds example but the head is radiate and the legend is similar, yours dropping a letter (the missing letter in parentheses): IMPCMOPE(L)SEV MACRIA[...]

    I don't know if the references for this coin document minor differences such as legend abbreviations. For instance, Emmett's Alexandrian reference doesn't bother with separate catalog numbers for details such as bust direction, differences in legend, etc.
    furryfrog02 and Marsyas Mike like this.
  9. Marsyas Mike

    Marsyas Mike Well-Known Member

    Oops. Yep, I meant radiate. The main difference is the head vs. cuirassed bust. I just can't seem to find a "head" version like mine. "Heads" are used for other reverse types, just not Dionysos.

    Thanks for catching that! :shame:
    Roman Collector likes this.
  10. Marsyas Mike

    Marsyas Mike Well-Known Member

    I'm a bit slow on the uptake here, but although my photos are too poor to show it, the Wildwinds example actually has two variations in the obverse legend, the missing "L" which you noticed, and an extra G at the end:



    It is too bad RPC Online hasn't covered Macrinus yet - from my limited experience with that site (and my rather poor navigating skills there), I'm pretty sure they would assign a separate number for a head/cuirassed bust variance. Sometimes they do "blend" minor legend differences (ligatures, extra or dropped letters, etc.) without creating a new number.

    So I decided to look for obverse die matches on acsearch, and if not a die match, it is pretty close - same legends, and the same bump on the bottom of the bust running into the IMP. But this has a Fortuna reverse (Leu):

    Deultum, Thrace - Macrinus cuirassed Fortuna standing Varb. 2103 - auct OBV LEGEND MATCH pic.jpg
    Roma tried to sell the same coin:

    Side-by-side poor quality photos:

    Deultum Thrace - Macrinus Dionysios Nov 2021 (0 obv die).jpg

    Here's another possibility, Emperor standing with Nike reverse:

    Deultum, Thrace - Macrinus cuirassed Emp w Nike Varb. 2090 - auct OBV LEGEND MATCH pic.jpg

    And side by side:

    Deultum Thrace - Macrinus Dionysios Nov 2021 (0 obv die2).jpg

    Hmmm. Mine definitely seems like a viable bust/legend type for Deultum, possibly even a die match. I just can't seem to find a Dionysos. The search continues...

    Thanks again for your help.
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