Need advice with an 1880-O Morgan

Right. By definition if there are rubs on the high points or breaks in the luster on the high points then it falls out of the MS category and into the circulated category. That point took me a long time to understand when I started....you can see some nice AU 58 coins that have much better eye appeal than an MS 61 or 62 for example, as the latter often have so many bag marks they really are unattractive.

 

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I have never been a big fan of LED lighting when it comes to taking images of slabbed coins, and when you add into the equation the fact that you are using a cellphone camera, it makes it much harder to capture a good image.

Personally, I would prefer using halogen, tungsten or even fluorescent lights where you can position them farther away from the subject and at an angle which allows the light to bounce away from the camera lens. You can't do that with most cellphones.

Chris

Chris

 

"pellet sinister"...what kind of turn of phrase is that? What's the origin?

@messydesk

edit: googled it...fascinating...latin word for left is sinistra which in english is sinister (but which has morfed into evil, etc.).

 

And the right dot is "pellet dexter." Sadly, I haven't been able to get this terminology to catch on with, well, anybody. I just like to throw it out there once in a while to mess with people.

 

It certainly has more flāgrāre than left and right dot....

 

Why not start off with some legitimate, certified MS common date Morgans, instead of playing the common date “possibly circulated, probably cleaned” roulette? Common date Morgans are inexpensive enough, so as to not have to light every one of them up so as to see if there are small AU rubs on raw coins? I bet, for all you paid for the common date Morgans, you could have picked up some nice MS 64 dates, that are unequivocally nice, as opposed to speculation in a tough raw coin market (Morgans raw are a tough market, due to all of the proliferation of cleaned, damaged, and fake coins, being passed off as MS coins).

 

BTW, the area right above the ear is rarely fully struck on New Orleans mint coins.

Do you have a book on Morgans? A good book would list each year and mint mark and provide you with some details about the coin that were struck.

 

Strike on New Orleans Morgans is pretty good in the earlier years, including 1880. Starting in 1882-3 you start seeing a lot of mediocre strikes. This peaks in the early 1890s, where pancakes are the norm.

Two good books on Morgans are Wayne Miller's Textbook of Morgan and Peace Dollars and the Whitman Guide Book of Morgan Dollars (a.k.a. Morgan Dollar Red Book).

 

I am way ahead of you. Last month I bought these graded coins. After looking over the PCGS Photograde, I realized I need the real thing in hand to compare too. Then I started buying raw ones to compare to these. If the raw coin did not fall anywhere near these, I considered it AU or lower. Some of my coins compare well to these graded ones, but unfortunately I am learning some of my graded ones were likely "sliders" themselves, so they are not an effective comparison. I am pretty confident at this point my MS65 is actually AU58.

My NGC MS61, and PCGS MS63, are very solid (IMO) on their grading, the NGC MS63 is also questionable. Is has a very low level of luster compared to the other 3. It is no where near is nice as the PCGS MS63 is.

I probably need to look for a really solid graded MS64 or MS65 to start using as a comparison.

 

There is a difference between slight circulation wear and what I refer to as bag rub. The latter is an artifact of 75 years of storage and for a while annual inventory that may have included counting individual coins. Slight circulation wear includes patches of disturbances on the fields especially the large wide open areas. Bag rub will affect the high points of the coin but only include contact marks on the fields.

 

Old story—when you buy raw coins from a dealer, they are MS-64. When you try to sell back the same coins, they are AU 58. This is why I don’t even consider buying raw Morgans—haven’t for over 20 years. I like the idea of them being certified for my own peace of mind, even if they are subject to market grading.

This “ain’t my first rodeo” with the Morgan series. I have owned thousands of them, so I doubt you will ever be “way ahead of me.” lol

 

@Morgandude11 - look, give the guy a break. He’s new to the hobby and just beginning to learn. He doesn’t need to find “attitude” here. There’s enough of it in the real world.

 

WOW! I thought it was kind of obvious that by stating "way ahead of you", I was referring to the fact I had already bought some graded Morgans as you suggested well before you suggested it (around 20 days or so).

Please don't respond to any more of my posts if I have to live in fear that the slightest linguistic mistake in my text will trigger you. I have enough stress in my job, I don't need it in my hobby. Besides, as a human, I am bound to make mistakes.

 

To clarify, my reply above (post#31) was in response to your statement regarding what I assume is the MS65 graded 1887.

 

I will respond to whatever post I choose. My intention was to be humorously helpful, showing huge discrepancies in buying and selling grades of Morgans by dealers. No agenda, but some constructive advice. You took umbrage when none was intended. People try and be constructive around her, and that was precisely what I was doing. As someone who has years of Morgan collecting experience, it was my intention to attempt to be helpful. Think you overreacted more than a bit. Sorry you have stress in your job, but if you want to compare stresses, my wife just had a cardiac procedure at the Mayo Clinic 3 weeks ago. Stuff happens, and this is a hobby with many pitfalls.

 

Your attempt to be helpful is appreciated.

Like the whole Internet, this thread is forever. Anyone reading this today or years from now will be able to form their own opinion of who is over reacting and who is not, or who is showing signs of attitude and who is not. We can let history be the judge.

I wish you and your wife the best, and hope she is recovering rapidly.

I am going to keep buying more coins, as I am having a lot of fun doing it.

 

I think you should continue to buy coins—it is obvious that you have a sensitivity for the hobby, and Silver Dollars in specific. Just trying to be helpful. Morgans are not as easy to grade, as they are large, with large devices, with plenty of places to hide small pockets of wear. I was being sincere—having a nice stock of graded coins protects your investment (even though TPGs make mistakes), and gives the buyer a good frame of reference. The joke about buying raw Morgans MS, and having to sell the same coins AU is an old adage—before Third Party grading, it was even more subjective than it is now.

My intent was to be sarcastically humorous, and sorry if it went awry. You do have good instincts, and don’t stress over debates on this site—we are often a bunch of opinionated experts (especially me).

Just keep doing what you are doing, and thanks for your good wishes for my wife—she is recovering nicely.

 

Hi. You are correct. I'm reading this on 2-15-2019. I'm very serious and have to agree with Ike Skywalker. Coin Talk should be educational not critical. I have been collecting coins for 64 years and it is a learning experience. I hope one day you have many complete Morgan Dollar sets in various conditions and have the opportunity to see many top graded coins along with every grade from poor to the top condition rarities. In 64 years I have bought and sold tens of thousands of Morgan and Peace dollars, have 11 complete sets of Morgans without the 1895 (have seen 3 1895 Proofs in a nearby county) and 12 sets of Peace dollars with many extras. My suggestion is read the various Morgan and Peace dollar books on the market. Read about VAM's and study VamWorld.com. I have 6 different grading guide books written by various authorities on grading. I have coins graded by the ANA in the early 1970's and coins graded by many of the TPG's throughout the years. I just sent 12 of my 1893-S Morgan dollars to SEGS for encapsulation and subjective, suggestive grading by Larry Briggs. I find that SEGS graded stricter than many of the PCGS and NGC coins I have. GRADING is subjective and suggestive anyway by humans so I wanted the strongest capsule for my coins and if SEGS gets it right on grading, it's a plus. Keep collecting Morgan and Peace dollars. Never give up no matter what anyone says or suggests. But remember study and read. You will learn History, you will learn minting processes, you will learn about luster, you will learn about wear, You will learn from the best authorities. Happy Coin collecting.

 

The only way to train your grading eye is to look at coins. A lot of coins.

If yoy want to focus on Morgans or Morgans and Peace dollars, invest in your own "grade" set from NGC or PCGS (your choice). That plus the online photograde, a good light and a 3x or 5x loupe.

You can put together a non-toned set of 53, 55, 58, 62, 63, 64 of common dates known to be decently struck for not a lot of money. You could do it with 80S for maybe 300-400$ with HUGE payback.

 

Well, I have been taking the advice to look at LOTs of coins very seriously.
Last Saturday I sorted and graded about 400-450 Franklin half dollars. I have now moved onto around 500 Walking Liberty half dollars, and so far, I think I like them as much as Morgans. I am finding it much easier to pick out circulation evidence in coins and drop them into AU levels right away.