Natural or Artificial Toning?

Go search eBay for toned ASE's. You'll see evidence of my thinking.

 

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Additionally, rather that use the vague terms AT/NT (which I can't stand), use either Market Acceptable or Not Market Acceptable. None of the TPG's and can really say if toning is NT/AT, it's vitually impossible. Instead, they simply decide if they want the coin in one of their slabs. Regardless if toning was obtained natually, I've seen them reject a lot of coins and all I (and my local dealer) could surmise is they just didn't want it in their slab (NGC and PCGS).

 

Its just like their grading standards, they both have things they like and do not like based off of their standard that is slightly different from each other. NGC though does seem opposed to slabbing any modern toners.

 

There is no scientific difference between NT and AT done right.

 

I tend to agree with this.

Challenge: It would make a really neat research project if a chemical lab could run several analytical tests combined with electron microscope studies to determine if there was a detectable difference (obviously beyond the funds & equipment of a collector) in the grain size, % of chemical compounds, whatever...of NT and AT coins. It might be similar to the half-life of radioactive substances or the grain size of a cast coin.

 

I don't think NT takes as long as some might think, and doubt there would be a discernible scientific difference between AT done correctly and NT. It is thin-film progression involved, and that can only happen by one physical process not possible if you push it too hard. All the same, I like your thinking here. We need to apply scientific method more determinedly to numismatics.

 

I would like to see what a newly struck coin looks like, both for proofs and business strikes. Then the same for toned, dipped, cleaned, etc. coins.

And, does NGC (or others) use high-powered microscopes when you pay for the additional metallurgic analysis service? That may simply be for composition, not sure.

 

One may assume that the TPG's have been employing XRF (X-ray Fluorescence) technology for a long time, giving them the ability to identify alloy compositions with extreme accuracy, within the limits of the technology. They can detect 2ppm of lead in sand, but can be limited in depth when differentiating numismatic metals due to their relatively-similar atomic makeup. Check it out, it's pretty cool handheld tech.

The kind of magnification and imaging quality available to the amateur numismatist these days is enough to do professional-level optical surface analysis at one's desk for a few hundred bucks. I screwed up a few years back and bought an overdipped Morgan, and watched the surfaces deteriorate in my (cheap) USB microscope as I successively dipped it by stages into oblivion. The camera sucked, and simply couldn't capture what I was seeing on the screen. So yeah, in my opinion that's possible.

 

Yeah I saw those analyzers in a YouTube video. They're super fast, too, to boot.

Super expensive, too.

And, I tried to search online for coin images under extreme magnification but came up short.

 

It's all yours. I ended up buying a different one.

Just remember to bid your max at the last few moments to optimize your chance of winning!

 

The problem with using scientific method is that it is very expensive. I have a $250,000+ SEM-EDXRF in my lab but it's fairly time consuming to analyze a sample. I can easily spend an hour+ dinking around with a single sample. Not to mention, I'm putting wear and tear on my instrument each time I fire it up.

Personally, I'm not willing to sit down and analyze a bunch of coins. If I was doing it under a contract basis, I'd easily charge $1500-2000 per sample analysis. I'd love to better characterize a lot of different coin phenomena but it's just too time and cost prohibitive..... and I think most any other scientist with access to such instrumentation wouldn't be willing either.

Now, if PCGS or other coin-based business wants to hire me (and I'm not cheap), buy the proper equipment and put me on the project, I'd be all over it! ....but they better have a serious "war chest".

 

To what degree - I assume it's massive - does equipment that high-end increase the resolution/accuracy over the handheld XRF scanners with coin metals? Aside SEM, that is; haven't figured out how to do that in my bedroom yet.

 

Massive would be the correct word. The handheld instruments are but toys. To make it simple to understand, the SEM has up to 120,000x mag and I can look at the EDXRF spectra at any point I desire with a mouse click (at any mag). I can also select an area and get the spectra over it. Also, the range of elements detected is massive, it covers a good part of the periodic table from carbon to lead (it might even detect heavier than Pb but that's as far as I need in my work) with peak integration and normalization (for semi-quantitation).

 

That is not even remotely close to true.

To the OP - I'm not sure what type of mint packaging this coin came in, but it looks consistent with toning I've seen before. It isn't terribly attractive, but it looks natural.

 

OK, I am officially jealous.

 

It sold for 74 + 3 shipping; so does that equate to NT? (And no I didn't win it)

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1924-Silver...184225?hash=item4d3f1a8461:g:zRAAAOSwzhVWtiMK

 

Is this natural toning?

 

You can do this yourself as an experiment.

 

They check the metal. I believe they only have a hand held unit but they must have access to better if not "in house."

 

That's a rip-off You are WAYYYYYYYYYY over priced.