N777mwood at it again!

Likely true, since he'd have to calculate the time and cost to doctor his notes to be more appealing. Is it worth the extra time and resources just to make a few more dollars on lower dollar notes, probably not. This note pointed out, he bought for under $300 and now it's well over $300, he's clearly going to make up in costs likely from his doctor job on it.

 

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100% agreement there.

 

I found another one: 1928 $20 Gold Certificate

 

I plan on experimenting with common circulated $1 bills to see if I can replicate his results. Knowing the process that the paper itself goes through might help me create "crisp" and "clean" bills. Not sure about the holes and tears though. I'll be working on that after I figure out the first processes.

 

Oops. My post duplicates this one.

 

I don't know if he doctors the photos for the tears or if on the actual bill he "attaches" replica paper to match out the surfaces. There is a website on Comic Restoration, that can give you an idea, for before and after photos of what can be done to "restore" something paper wise. It was an eyeopener for me, as not only colors can be restored, but evidently missing parts of the item can too.

Take a gander at this site:
http://www.classicsincorporated.com/

 

Another one listed as "condition: unknown". That has to be the red flag to watch for and, no doubt, keeps him from being held responsible for any doctoring. I wonder if he is selling currency in other listings without the Norwood name association?

 

I tripped on the note because it was unnaturally white leading me to believe it must have been washed/bleached. Here's a normal $20 Gold Certificate:



Compared to a note that's been washed:

 

Ron:

My first concern would have been the way this person listed it.
You see, the "star symbol" used for that note was simply an ending place for the SN. Star notes really did not come into play until 1910.
When I had the Large Size Collection...I noted over 13 different ending symbols used for this purpose. I searched high and low to discover what these meant and where they originated but never found out.
Fancy Backs are truly beautiful and very expensive. This particular Series only has 6 notes..I once owned 3 of them and if I ever get back into Large Size again, this will be the set I try to build..along with my $2 Hancock Brown Seal.

 

This is why I am advising collectors to join a forum such as this. Thanks to all for helping to educate us. As of this moment, I own just 1 bill. I purchased it slabbed because of reading threads like this. As I begin to educate myself on collecting paper money I am grateful to the OP and others who have contributed to this thread.

 

I personally like the restoration work they have done. They are not damaging the bills IMO (which are more fragile than metal/coins). I also do compare the work they have done to that of a doctor who "alters" coins (but damages them). See, I would accept more a bill (paper money) to be restored than that of a coin. For the simple fact that a bill is very fragile and when they are rare, the best thing to do is to restore them so that its "history" keeps circulating (as a collectible) in numismatists hands.

Now... If that person was plugging a whole on a coin or polishing it, in the "attempt" to restore the coin, then I would be completely against it. Coins are much easier to maintain in good conditions and last longer than that of paper money.

Another thing I noticed is that I have seen people ATing coins but complain about the "restoration" of these beautiful notes. Why is that? Why is it that the restoration of these paper money is such a big issue?

Let me note that yes, everyone has their opinions and the right to agree and disagree. This is simply one of my opinions when I say "I like the work they did and don't have an issue with the restorations on paper money".

 

tonedcoins:

What you refer to as restoration is generally referred to on the paper side as doctoring and is not an acceptable practice. More importantly, even for those few who may accept the practice, the failure to disclose the alterations is the bigger sin.

Your comparison to coins is misplaced. Note doctoring is harmful to the note itself. Cleaning is usually done with harsh chemicals such as bleach or mild abrasives. Both of these affect the integrity of the paper and weaken its bond. The long term effects of chemicals have yet to be seen. If they have penetrated the paper, there is no way to be certain they may not lead to more rapid deterioration of the paper.

 

I'm kind of surprised you feel that way as I look at is like people that AT coins in the same light. And I'm pretty sure you don't like people to tone a coin just to try to make money.

 

Obviously you're right and the guy definitely does something but what? Maybe he does tricks with the camera and takes a better looking pic of the same bill. How do you know he bleaches them or restores them have you bought one from him? Excuse me if I missed something but I never heard of the guy mostly because I only buy paper in person. If he's messing with the paper or camera just for the sake of making a profit then he's no different than the coin toners on ebay and they all need to be taken out to the wood shed. Or at least run off of ebay!!:yes: I'll be keeping an eye out for a few days just to see what's up as I can't stand a no good #%$^*&(**!! hya: :sniper::T$:

 

Its time to let the ones that buy these feel the pain and stop depending on others to look out for them.I think a person thats lazy and dosent educate his or her self do the same when buying cars and homes.They make a poor choice and then look to others to help them by saying they were never told.I look at what i buy do my resurch and still have got a bad coin.I look at it as a learning lesson and hold myself reponsible.

 

How we know is a couple of people on the paper forum have been burned, and big time! I wish I can remember the thread about six months ago, but it was a huge purchase that Woods broke out of a slab and doctored it. A member here used a cool software program that tracks notes, and brought it to our attention. It effected me, cause I don't like when good people get violated by bad people and get away with it!

If I caught the above right, are you referring to thread which I broke open the whole eBay AT coin thing by actually reproducing how it's done because I color metal as a gunsmith? I absolutely do not condone any modification to either coins or currency. There is one thing that both share, and that is motive for folks on eBay to take advantage of collectors for a financial gain! On the other hand, it's your collection and you have every right to burn, beat, bleach, press, or iron any of it. Just don't sale to us without disclosing it was doctored. The guys that bought a doctored note from Wood and know the note was doctored, have to dig deep and do the right thing if they ever sale it! They will no doubt take a hit!
I know it's hard to believe that someone in this time and place has any ethic? Surprise! I'm one of them!
I can turn a coin any color of the rainbow with a little time, and I know that tweaked a lot of folks on the coin forum. I don't know why? I was trying to educate, and bust the bubbles of the people that create, and sale this crap on eBay at jacked up prices.
I never tried messing with bank notes to see exactly how it's done. You guys will be the first to know what, where, and when if I ever try and what to look for (I think I have already covered many thing to look and smell for cause I received some garbage off eBay myself). Didn't a couple of folks here already volunteer to test different methods? Be warned I got a lot of heat for the AT coin thing, even though I was trying to use my expertise with metal to help? I got everything short of death threats from that little thread! I think even some old timers got expelled for going nuts on me, and a couple others! btw: I'm pretty sure that thread is gone bye-bye by now.
Also you guys that volunteer please document everything, and maybe even post a Youtude video. Remember to turn off the comments on the video cause you will get attacked by folks who don't understand what your trying to accomplish. Trust me on that!!!!!!!!!!!!
Once again I digress LOLOLOLOL

 

You are correct when you say "The long term effects of chemicals have yet to be seen. If they have penetrated the paper, there is no way to be certain they may not lead to more rapid deterioration of the paper".

However, I simply don't see it as a malicious thing to do because paper is paper and if not preserved (restored), then there won't be many to collect, if any left.

I do agree with ronterry on the fact that the seller is selling these notes without the mentioning of any work been done to them. It would be nice if they did. And even so, I don't think it would hurt the "value" that much because I still think it is a great work done to restore them.

Duke Kavanaugh: I can't believe I said this either. Me, as one of those who have been threatened for putting "coin doctors" out there, sued (they all lost) and all, would think this is ok to do, or at least acceptable IMO.

ronterry: I sure didn't learn anything when you made that thread about "how to" AT coins, sorry. I did however, changed the way I think of you. I'm still ashamed at CT for kicking anyone who got heated on that thread for your doctoring.

I did learn something from this thread though. I never took the time to check my notes for deep signs of restoration and so I started doing so now. Not that it will bother me really if I did find one in my small collection but good to search them and learn even more.

 

Apparently you have not been around the paper money hobby for very long if you really believe this. The paper money TPG have a way of identifying notes that have been doctored. Original, undoctored notes will receive a designation of PPQ (Premium Paper Quality) or EPQ (Exceptional Paper Quality) depending on the TPG. A note without the PQ designator will sell at a significant discount over the same note with the same numerical grade with the PQ designator.

Washing, pressing and otherwise doctoring notes is not restoration. These things are not done to preserve the note, they are done to artificially improve the grade of the note for one purpose only -- increasing its value. Doctoring notes is no different than cleaning and artificially toning coins.

 

I too would like add one additional comment to the statement you made about "paper is just paper".
I am sorry to say that that is simply just not true. There are may types of paper. Crane Corp is the supplier of paper for US Fed Reserve Currency Printing Facilities.


From their Website:

"Crane Currency paper is noted around the world for its high durability and resistance to soiling. Banknote paper durability has been the focus for our company since its beginning and we have developed a specific formula based on a raw material configuration that differs from most paper-makers. Our cotton and linen raw material is selected from only the highest quality suppliers and we are the biggest buyer of cotton for paper in the world. Our manufacturing process has been optimised to derive the best performance characteristics from every type of cotton and linen and to give us the highest levels of flexibility and responsiveness to market demands." :thumb:

 

Looks like N777mwood has a little company. Add a seller named Jack_470 to that list as well. Bought this 1914 $20 FRN with a rare signature combo Burke/Glass for a relatively inexpensive price. To what did await me on Friday, was a bill that feels nothing like the others I have in lesser grades. Even VG and F notes have that durable crispy feel to them despite folds, wrinkles, and stains. And see how pasty white it is, it's been bleached and pressed, the scent is evident. The only redeeming thing about the seller is that he offers a return policy, which is a bold move considering the doctored US notes he sells. I've bought it cheap enough that I think I'll keep it and use it as an educational tool and for doing a video on doctored or repaired notes. If he didn't restore the note, even in VF condition we're talking a $500-600 note. Anyways, just thought I'd throw in my two cents and drive awareness to this seller. Here's the link to my auction and photos of the note in my possession.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/140681484336?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649