My First Fake?

Discussion in 'Coin Chat' started by Jwt708, Apr 19, 2016.

  1. Jwt708

    Jwt708 Well-Known Member

    Hello!

    Today I bring my first possible fake purchase and oddly enough it is a military trade token. :eek::mad:

    Here's the token:
    Bien Hoa AB $5 Bad Pic.jpg

    I left the file large in case anyone wanted to zoom in.

    Here's the story - I was on eBay and noticed this token. I've never seen a $5 token from a Vietnam base before so I was immedatley interested and it was from an Air Base so it is right up my alley. The seller is from Vietnam which didn't raise any flags since...well Bien Hoa Air Base was in Vietnam.

    I won the auction and the token showed up. As soon as had the token in hand it didn't feel right. Hard to explain, but it was off. Look at the fields - there's almost a cross-hatch effect going on. I've never seen that and I've handled hundreds of tokens...maybe not hundreds of brass...but I own plenty. Both the fields and devices have holes in them. The black specs you see are holes in the metal with no accompanying corrosion or damage. I've seen damaged and corroded tokens but not like this. It was as if the metal was never there.

    The rim is awfully strange. It has a very obvious seam all around, but the seam doesn't stick out but is recessed. You can see evidence of the weirdness of the rim on the obverse. I tried to take shots of the rim but gave up. There is also one spot on the rim that appears to have been recently filed exposing bright metal, where the rest has a older appearance.

    Speaking of appearance, this token exhibits no corrosion, at all. Just about every brass token I have has some corrosion. Fingerprints, spots, something. And many I've seen for sale the last three years, from Vietnam, have exhibited some sort of corrosion. Weird. Also no luster or reflectivity at all, which are traits just about every other token I own has.

    Finally, Cunningham doesn't record a $5 token for Bien Hoa from the enlisted clubs but does record one from the officer's club though it's in aluminum and of a completely different style. This token does match the VN240 series but all of those are aluminum.

    Now this is not the same as finding a US coin unlisted in the Red Book. There are plenty of military tokens unlisted in Cunningham, and I have several. I have unlisted denominations, tokens in unlisted metals, etc. So just because something isn't listed doesn't mean it didn't exist.

    Now for those who haven't clicked away...military tokens come in a variety of sizes and compositions. For what it's worth, the only other round $5 tokens I have, the Bien Hoa is over a gram lighter and about 2 mm smaller than the others. Here is one from Offutt AFB:

    NE270d Offut AFB $5.jpg
     
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  3. Jwt708

    Jwt708 Well-Known Member

    Oh, if anyone is interested, I will attempt to shoot the rim again.

    I'm really disappointed in this token and weirdly interested because I think it's fake. I plan on keeping it. Let's face it - these don't break the bank and a counterfeit is pretty interesting. Why would someone fake this? Is it fake or did the leadership at Bien Hoa AB decide to purchase them from a sub par manufacturer? Why did Ray Bows or Paul Cunningham never encounter them?
     
    Paul M. likes this.
  4. Markus1959

    Markus1959 Well-Known Member

    Looks like a casting.
     
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  5. Jwt708

    Jwt708 Well-Known Member

    My thoughts as well.

    Casted why? To fool collectors like me? To fool the people using them? Were there brass $5 tokens in use in the '60s by G.I.s at Bien Hoa? The tokens that were remotely similar were made of aluminum.
     
    Paul M. likes this.
  6. Markus1959

    Markus1959 Well-Known Member

    Maybe a guy worked in a foundry and wanted a pocket piece? Who would really know.
     
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  7. Markus1959

    Markus1959 Well-Known Member

  8. Paul M.

    Paul M. Well-Known Member

    Interesting, and it does sound like a cast based on your description. I'm not familiar with these and have no idea why anyone would fake one, either. The only thing that's a little off that I noticed was the bottom of the E in OPEN is a little weird looking, and the dashes underneath the 0's don't line up very well. I'd say more research is needed.
     
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  9. Jwt708

    Jwt708 Well-Known Member

    Paul M. likes this.
  10. Jwt708

    Jwt708 Well-Known Member

  11. John Anthony

    John Anthony Ultracrepidarian

    Since you've probably handled more military tokens than anyone on this forum, you would be the expert. I would say trust your instincts as to its authenticity. It certainly doesn't look struck to me.

    The question is: is it a replica meant to deceive collectors, or were people counterfeiting them during the war? Because the latter would make them interesting. Are there known instances where military tokens were counterfeited for use as military tokens?
     
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  12. Jwt708

    Jwt708 Well-Known Member

    @John Anthony these are very fair questions...there was quite a scandal with the slot machines and people skimming off the top. I'm afraid I'll never really know who the rube was supposed to be.
     
  13. John Anthony

    John Anthony Ultracrepidarian

    Wait, military tokens were used in slot machines? lol
     
  14. SuperDave

    SuperDave Free the Cartwheels!

    I don't know why, but I have a hard time working up anything but admiration for this piece. Talk about entrepreneurial spirit - who else is filling that niche (counterfeit Viet Nam mess tokens)? The guy probably has it completely to himself. :)
     
  15. Jwt708

    Jwt708 Well-Known Member

    Actually people went to jail over skimming profits from the slot machines. I forget the year...it's late here...but I can add to his sad saga later. Eventually they had to dump the slot machines into the ocean. After that, in Vietnam, they were only using tokens to extend credit and operate vending machines. If I'm wrong...someone please correct me - I wasn't there!
     
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  16. Jwt708

    Jwt708 Well-Known Member

    My feelings are less noble should this be a counterfiet because they're scamming me and like 5 other people. It seems like such a waste of effort. This token is just so unlike every other token I've come across.
     
  17. longnine009

    longnine009 Darwin has to eat too. Supporter

    I think I see part of the seam at MES of MESS. If it's cast you should see signs of a casting sprue or great pains to hide it, maybe.

    But maybe it's an electrotype that circulated in the black market during the war. The shells would be thin and circulation would breach the shells?

    It would be totally cool if it was a contemporary fake that circulated during the war.

    Why not? Five bucks USD would have been a decent amount of money for a forger in Vietnam in the 60's?

    I'm just guessing Jack. It definitely looks fake. But it may yet be some interesting Vietnam War history.
     
    Last edited: Apr 19, 2016
  18. Rick Stachowski

    Rick Stachowski Motor City Car Capital

    And sandblasting too, it makes it look old ...
     
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  19. SuperDave

    SuperDave Free the Cartwheels!

    I get that, and don't disagree, but the counterfeiter is playing to a demographic (like yourself) which is far less likely to be taken in by a fake than the "average" collector. One does not enter numismatics for the specific purpose of collecting military tokens - at least, so it seems to me - but tends to acquire it as a specialty after learning the ropes a bit. So, the poor guy isn't about to get rich from his efforts.
     
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  20. Circus

    Circus Tokens Only !! TEC#4981

    I have to say that It does look off the rim does look like the mold marks from casting a thin item. The location it is from is interesting to me as that is the base they choppered me of the tin can I was on, to have a brass splinter removed from my eye. I was only there for two days and was in the MASH type unit so the only time I was out and about I went with a corps man to the club for a couple beers.I didn't see or get any in country money other than MPC as I had green backs.
    the fill background could be from cleaning up with a cotton/felt buff wheel, It also does have a strange surface look compared to any tokens that I have of any age.
    Do you know if they had their tokens made in the local region or were they done in the USA.

    If they were done in India they are know for their magnetic brass, extremely poor quality control in prepping the scrap material for melting. A magnetic would stick to the brass casting a guy would sell at the local flea market. I would drive him crazy when I would come by his booth.

    The black flecks also could be what ever other contaminates with a higher melting point than the brass. Since they appear to be well integrated in to the surface.
    All in all I do think you are correct as to it being a fake. Why well like anything else you call it a fake the seller calls it a reproduction historical piece if pressed on its authenticity!

    Probably a jeweler casting them as a supplement to his income. as it has all the indicators. Of a lost wax, investment cast piece that could explain the dull finish and the cross hatching.

    Other than the above I got nothing for ya!:clown:
     
  21. Jwt708

    Jwt708 Well-Known Member

    That was very informative, thanks! I also appreciate you taking a look at it - I know you've seen lots of tokens.

    I think they were having tokens manufactured largely in Japan. I don't remember off the top of my head but I can check my references (Cunningham and Bows) and see what they say when I get home.
     
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