My First Double Die

That Barbra Dollar I brought is my first double die! At first, I kept thinking the camera was out of focus on the bottom of the coin, but then I really examined it under the magnifying glass, and it took some convincing until I looked at it with full concentration in the sun light in the powerful glass up close and there it was, clear as daylight!

Check this out

The full photo is here

http://www.mrbrklyn.com/coins/barabara_1915_D_obverse_very_clear_2.jpg

 

Log in or Sign up to hide this ad.

Hi Ruben
Do you mean the date??...I can't tell as it looks blurry but is it machine doubling??

Speedy

 

Looking at the big picture you may have something. The top is clear but the bottom half looks all doubly.

B

 

I also see some stronger doubling on the bottom half of the Obverse but there appears to be lesser doubling on all of the Stars and on "IN GOD WE TRUST" as well. I would venture that it is Distorted Hub Doubling which is not quite as desirable but is Doubled Die Doubling no less!

Nice find and that is a really nice looking Barber Half! Way to go!


Frank

 

I can't even bring up the bigger photo....its too large

Speedy

 

Yeah - thats not blurry. the doubling actualy FOOLS your eye to see blur. Its actually pretty cool, like the stripes of Zebra's. The G in GOD is also clearly doubled, especially in the scan. I'm going to get a smaller image for you up in a second.

http://www.mrbrklyn.com/coins/barabara_1915_obverse.png
http://www.mrbrklyn.com/coins/barbara_obverse_1915_D_scanner.png



http://www.mrbrklyn.com/coins/barabara_1915_D_obverse_very_clear_2_motto.jpg
http://www.mrbrklyn.com/coins/barabara_1915_D_obverse_very_clear_3.jpg
http://www.mrbrklyn.com/coins/barabara_1915_D_obverse_very_clear_3.png
http://www.mrbrklyn.com/coins/barbara_obverse_1915_D_scanner.tif

Ruben

 

Thanks Frank. This coin has already given me more pleasure than I anticaped. I wonder if i send it back to a grading companing with a note about the doubling that they would ID it. What is Distorted Hub Doubling?

Ruben

 

Or Speedy, look at it this way. See how sharp and clean the neck line is on the bottom of the portrait, and then the "blurr" of the date. Those are too close for this much distortion in the focus

Now look at the lower loop of the 9, inside the curve (and the 5). And then look at the upper tip of the star on the right of the coin.

Ruben

 

Hi,
Sorry Guys. There is no die doubling on this coin. While it is a GREAT looking coin, the doubling is some form of mechanical doubling.
Bill

 

Ok Ruben....I think I see it...
I don't think that is what would be called Doubling....yes its a type of doubling but not the kind the grading Co.s put on slabs...it would be either machine doubling or it might have happened from some vibrations on the machine when the master die was being made.
None the less...its a cool coin....but IMHO it doesn't add any value to it.

Speedy

 

You want to see a REAL double die?????? Check out this RARE item!

 

Hi,
Strangely enough though, it illustrates exactly what should be looked for with respect to the notches and overlapping of the lettering on a doubled die coin. Forget for a moment that the letters on the "wood" are flat and that the lettering on a coin should be rounded, give some attention to how the overlapping looks and then examine the areas where the outsides of the letters cross each other. Thats where the "notching" is evident.

To carry the analogy a little further, most types of mechanical doubling would be illustrated if the ink used for the lettering on the "wood" was smudged in a way that created a doubled appearance to the lettering. On a mechanically doubled coin, metal is "smudged" in a sense by the minting process and metal is moved around in a way that creates a double appearance on the coin.
I know, Clear as mud But it is a fairly accurate analogy

Also in the spirit of education, the correct terminology is "Doubled Die" and Not double die.
Have Fun,
Bill

 

If this is not Doubled Die than why is it only evident on the stars and the lettering, and that it all slides in the same direction?

Got me..

 

Like I said...

That might only show on one side.

Speedy

 

Although the doubling is very slight, I still believe that it is a minor Doubled Die caused by Distorted Hub Doubling!

Ruben,

I will try to explain Distorted Hub Doubling as best I can but I may have left something out or may not be totally correct in the description! Distorted Hub Doubling occurs when a Working Hub (Die for creating Working Dies) is created and the Master Hub used does not cool to it's normal size after annealing (heated to harden it) sometime during the process of creating the Working Hub. The Master Hub is annealed and after cooling, it is used to press the image/details into the Working Hub then it is heated again and allowed to cool before it is used again for the second pressing. If before the first pressing or in between the first and second pressing, the Master Hub does not return to it's normal size after annealing, then the images/details on the Working Hub will be off. If this Working Hub is used to make a Working Die, then Working Die will then have the doubling and the result is Doubling either towards the Rim or towards the Center of the coin. Distorted Hub Doubling can generally occur anytime in transfer of the image/details from a Master Die to a Master Hub, from a Master Hub to a Working Hub and from a Working Hub to a Working Die.


Frank

 

You're on the right track but the discription is wrong. First the Master Hub is created by the reducing lathe from the Galvano or epoxy model. After it's creation it is hardened and then it is NEVER re-annealed. (Annealing is a heat treating then slow controled cooling to soften a piece of metal, not to harden it.) The creation steps then are Master Hub creates Master Die, Master Die creates Working Hubs, and Working hubs creates Working Dies. While the distortion could happen at any of those steps Lets just assume it was the last stage the creation of the working die.* Now there is an understanding problem caused by the name of the doubling class. It is called Distorted Hub Doubling but the distortion does not occur in the hub. It occurs in the working die which as you say does not return to quite the same dimensions during the annealing (softening) process that hit had at the end of the first hubbing. Then when it gets the second hubbing, the images don't quite match up in various areas. In this case it shows hub doubling from distortion.

There is another class of hub doubling where the doubling DOES come from a distorted hub and that is worn hub doubling. In that case whil the die is being annealed, the hub is used to create many more dies before the first one returns. All of that hubbing wears out the hub and causes the details to spread out slightly from their original positions. So now when it is used for the second hubbing the details on the hub are in a slightly different position and the result is a "smearing" of the details with letters having extra thickness. This spread is strongest around the outer borders and radiates out from the center of the coin. It is also usually even all around the coin. (Distorted Hub Doubling may show in only one area, or in random areas around the coin depending on how the die distorted during annealing.) This type of hub doubling doesn't show spliting of the serifs.

*If the distortion took place other than on the working die the proper way to describe it would probalby be Distorted Master Die doubling, Distorted Working Hub doubling, and then finally Distorted hub doubling where it means that the die shows hub doublig and that doubling was due to distortion, not that the hub that did the die was distorted.

 

Hi,
I'm missing something. I never mentioned the manufacture of the master die and the rest was paraphrased from the cherrypickers' guide and I don't see any inconsistencies in Fivaz and Stanton's description.

And I agree 100% with your last two paragraphs.
Have Fun,
Bill