My Experiences with SEGS Grading

Discussion in 'Coin Chat' started by CLV1, May 12, 2015.

  1. CLV1

    CLV1 New Member

    Good afternoon CT!

    As I mentioned in my brief introduction, when I first started collecting coins I did what most new to the hobby do, BUY COINS! The problem with this is that I did not take the time to study the hobby and definitely didn't listen to the advice from the old timers to "Buy books instead of coins." I frequented a ton of different auctions on the internet and often used the CDN and Redbook to find a price that I felt comfortable paying for a coin and didn't exceed that price. I did not have an understanding of the differences between the TPG's and what some refer to as "Basement Graders." I also did not have a niche that I focused on and tended to purchase coins just because they were priced fairly, without having an understanding of what constitutes the difference between an AU and a MS coin in the series. Take note young collectors and do not follow in my path!

    I told you all of the background to set the stage for my first major coin purchase, I say major because of the price which was around $1,100. I was researching an auctions listing before it started and found in the first few coins a 1890-O Morgan graded MS-66 by SEGS. I researched the coin in the Redbook and the CDN and found both prices well over $5K for the grade. This was the first time I had ever seen a coin in a SEGS holder, so I researched the company as well. I went to their website and read their guarantee that accompanied all of their slabbed coins, which was extremely comforting as a buyer. None the less, there was no way I had anywhere close to the amounts listed in the Redbook or the CDN that I could possibly win the coin at an auction. The coin itself was gorgeous and had excellent eye appeal, keep in mind that I did not understand the differences between a MS-60 and a MS-66. Fast forward a little bit to when the coin was being auctioned, I placed a bid of around $1K thinking there was no way that I would win the coin and low and behold I did! I was super excited and nervous at the same time because I just spent that much money on the coin and thought it was too good to be true. I waited impatiently the next few days until it arrived in the mail and I was extremely happy with the coin's eye appeal when it arrived.

    As I began to collect more and more I found that I really enjoyed copper coins and focused my collecting on small cents. By this time I had a better understanding of the TPGs and realized that SEGS was not in the "top three." I decided that I would sell the Morgan and use that money to purchase small cents and I decided to shop it around to my LCSs. The first store I took it into the worker immediately scoffed at the coin because of the holder and did not even make an offer. Keep in mind that I had roughly $1,100 into the coin and the CDN price was well over $5K. I was pretty disappointed and thought for sure that the LCS may have just had something against SEGS. Long story short, I took the Morgan to roughly 15-20 different shops and not a single person would offer me anything close to the amount I had in the coin because they kept saying SEGS was known for over-grading coins. I researched in-depth through all kinds of different resources and compared photographs of coins graded MS-66 from the major companies to the coin I had in my possession. Some of the coins had a stronger strike, but some did not. I came to my own conclusion (opinion) that the coin was over graded by a point or two, but grading is always subjective.

    After I exhausted all of my options to sell the coin on my own, I sent the coin back to SEGS to have it re-graded and exercise the warranty if the coin graded anything less than the original MS-66. I typed out a letter to Mr. Briggs and outlined everything that I covered here and waited to here my fate. After a few weeks, I contacted SEGS and asked for an update on the coin and was informed that Mr. Briggs himself examined all of the coins that are sent in for re-grade and that he was scheduled to come to town in the next few days. I was patient and gave it another week to call and ask for another update. I was told Mr. Briggs wanted to discuss the coin with me and that he would give me a call. I explained that to my work schedule, I was unable to have my phone with me during most days and they were nice enough to give me his contact information. I got ahold of Mr. Briggs and never once was he rude or did he question the reasons why I thought the coin was over graded, his only concern was making he situation right. Mr. Briggs and I came up with a number that was fair on both ends, he even compensated me for the hassle the coin had caused. I did not start collecting coins as an investment or to make money, I simply wanted to break even on the coin so I could reinvest it into different coins.

    There are a few lessons to be learned from my experience. First, take the time to find out what you like collecting and learn as much as you can about the coins BEFORE you purchase. Second, buy the coin and not the label; I can hear the old timers laughing while repeating this already. Lastly, if you follow the other two lessons I learned, you will never be in the situation that I was in. All TPG’s make mistakes at some point and if you take the time to learn the basics of grading then you might just be able to capitalize on one of their mistakes.

    I have purchased multiple other coins in SEGS holders, the difference now is that I understand the coins I purchase and feel knowledgeable enough to assign my own grades before purchasing. Am I 100% right about them, absolutely not! But I am happy with my educated decisions and will continue to learn as I learn more about the hobby.

    Bottom line is that Mr. Briggs was extremely helpful and understanding and I just wanted to give him a public thank you. I have read on here in the past about people bashing the different grading companies, but if you follow the same lessons I learned then you should find yourself in an alright situation no matter what holder the coin is in.

    Sorry for the novel, just wanted to put the information out there in hopes some of the young collectors can learn from my mistakes.
    IMG_3076.jpg IMG_3077.jpg IMG_3078.jpg IMG_3079.jpg
     
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  3. aubade21

    aubade21 Well-Known Member

    Good story. Over the years, I've purchased a coin or two in SEGS holders as well. Holders don't do much for me in general, so but I realize there is value in having a coin slabbed. So while TPG's have their place in this hobby, we need to be mindful that the coin is what is important, not the number encased plastic.
     
    CLV1 likes this.
  4. bkozak33

    bkozak33 Collector

    maybe its the picture, but it doesnt even look UNC to me
     
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  5. C-B-D

    C-B-D Well-Known Member

    Great write up. Some professional pics would make this absolutely perfect. Looks like the luster is there but the detail/strike is not. See if you can retake them or have a friend give you a hand.
     
  6. rzage

    rzage What Goes Around Comes Around .

    Good warning to some new collectors . Also glad SEGS made it right . I think it may have the fields of a 66 but the weak strike would limit it . Sure would like to see clearer pics , but I understand if you don't as I was never good at taking coin pics .
     
    TheFinn and CLV1 like this.
  7. CLV1

    CLV1 New Member

    I don't have the coin anymore or I would take different photographs. Mr. Briggs essentially bought the coin from me when he agreed to make the situation right. Once again, I can't praise SEGS or Mr. Briggs enough for the way the handled the situation.
     
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  8. Coinchemistry 2012

    Coinchemistry 2012 Well-Known Member

    Even assuming the coin was all there otherwise, the strike would bring it down to 64 max for me.
     
    Paul M. likes this.
  9. Coinchemistry 2012

    Coinchemistry 2012 Well-Known Member

    If you don't mind me asking, how much did SEGS offer you? Feel free to PM me if you choose to answer at all.
     
  10. harris498

    harris498 Accumulator

    Boy, talk about a weak strike.
    I'm glad SEGS made it right for you. I've always thought their grading on early copper was pretty accurate.
     
  11. Paul M.

    Paul M. Well-Known Member

    This from PCGS Coinfacts:

    ===
    The 1890-O Morgan Silver Dollar is common in Uncirculated condition but Gems are scarce. Part of the reason for the scarcity of Gems is because many of this date come poorly struck. Many Mint State examples have the details of a Very Fine coin, despite having full luster on both sides. The most "common" Uncirculated grade is MS-63, followed by MS-64 and MS-62, in that order. Prooflikes and Deep Mirror Prooflikes are scarce; in Gem condition they both become rare. The finest examples certified by PCGS are 19 MS-66's, a single MS-66 Prooflike, and a single MS-66 Deep Mirror Prooflike.
    ===

    I'm not surprised some people thought the coin wasn't even UNC. :)
     
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  12. Treashunt

    Treashunt The Other Frank

    I used SEGS many years ago when they first started.

    I thought that they were pretty accurate in their grading, and I got exactly what I expected, no over grades.
    Nice to see that Briggs stood behind his slab.
     
    Whipps, CLV1 and Coinchemistry 2012 like this.
  13. Coinchemistry 2012

    Coinchemistry 2012 Well-Known Member

    Although I have seen many where I disagreed with the grade and others I thought were okay, I think some people are too tough on SEGS. At a minimum, the authentication and attribution skills seem to be top notch. Grading wise, they are fairly consistent and that is what matters. I never pass up the opportunity to buy a quality coin in their plastic; just be sure to grade it yourself. Oh, and, as anyone who has ever cracked one will tell you, the holder is secure. You practically need the "jaws of life" device to crack one.
     
    Bob Evancho, CLV1 and Paul M. like this.
  14. John Kapalcik

    John Kapalcik New Member

    I wish I could share your optimism about Mr. Briggs and his "so-called" fair practices. Recently I inquired about an 1880 shield nickel he has in AU55+ condition. It was a raw coin and he advertised it for $3750.00. I sent an email asking if he'd be willing to have it graded by PCGS and if it came back OK I would send him payment. To make a long story short, he got ugly with me, saying that "all people want is plastic" and told me I could not have it at the advertised price because he thought he could get more money by sending it in to PCGS. He stated that he was tired of giving collectors a break on coins that he could get more money for by sending it in for TPG. He mentioned that the price after TPG may be as high as $6000. I told him I could send payment immediately if he would honor the price he put up on his website, that I apologized for upsetting him, but even so I've never heard from him again. IMO, this is not the professional attitude of a good coin dealer. To date, the bait and switch policy of his is obviously still in force as the coin remains on his website for $3750.00 but be advised that the price he posts may not be the price he will accept for the coin. Sad, I prefer the coin dealers of the past as they seemed much more honest to deal with.
     
    Paul M. likes this.
  15. John Kapalcik

    John Kapalcik New Member

    I
     
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  16. howards

    howards Shield Nickel Nut

    @John Kapalcik:

    I'm not going to make any negative comments on Larry Briggs, because I've known him a long time and have always found him to be extremely knowledgeable, especially about shield nickels.

    I can tell you that AU listed for $3750 on the website would come back from PCGS as an impaired proof. The only 1880s that PCGS will certify as business strikes have the "island reverse," which this coin lacks.
     
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  17. Marshall

    Marshall Junior Member

    I just picked up this SEGS attributed coin and hope I can see more in the copper than in the photos. I like being able to confirm an attribution for myself, but I'm afraid I can't from the photos. I'm hoping SEGS got the attribution right.
    A Holder.jpg 3 Holder.jpg A.jpg 3.jpg
     
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  18. Aotearoa

    Aotearoa Currently Smitten with DBLCs

    @Marshall: It was me you outbid! I was taking a punt as to whether SEGS attributed the coin correctly. It's very hard to tell from the fuzzy photos but it seems the 1 and the 8 may be too far apart. I hope it works out for you.
     
    Marshall likes this.
  19. Marshall

    Marshall Junior Member

    I'm now confident in the Obverse attribution due to the clash marks below the hair ribbon. This is diagnostic of Noyes Obverse 1801-3 Die Dtate C (Breen S-215 II) and is probably the reason for the attribution.

    But the reverse crack through the denominator to the R doesn't show on the reverse and the fraction bar isn't quite right to me. I'm going back and forth on whether I think this is a Breen S-215 I Reverse with the missing reverse crack having been worn down by polishing or a later die state of 1801 NC-1 than currently known which was produced after the Noyes 1801-3 Die State B.

    This would require an interrupted emissions sequence for Obverse 1801-3. (NC-1 B/E, B/F, S-215 B/F, {NC-1 C/F}, S-215 C/F, {NC-1 C/F}, S-215 C/G, D/G, D/H, E/I.)
    Whether it was produce before, during or after the production if the S-215 C/F could not be determined.

    And all this speculation is from a very worn coin with poor pictures because I can't see the reverse crack I expect to see for a S-215.

    Plus the Reverse wear pattern is unlike any other coin using this obverse with strength at K4-K9 and weakness where there is generally strength. Seeing the area around (E)S OF would certainly make it much easier to have confidence in an attribution.

    It's nice to hear from someone who occupies the spot I'm generally in at the price setter rather than the high bidder.
     
    Last edited: Mar 27, 2018
  20. Marshall

    Marshall Junior Member

    OK! I think I've had a Eureka! moment.

    Look at the two photos at the bottom of the left ribbon loop. The first is a nice example of an early S-215 (Reverse A) because the obverse lacks many of the later diagnostics. But it does show an incomplete bottom of the left ribbon loop. The second is an environmentally damaged NC-1 (Reverse B) with very fine detail showing a complete bottom left ribbon loop.

    The third photo is of the subject coin between the first and second photos for comparison. I think it clearly shows that this is the NC-1 in a later die state that previously known as speculated on in the prior post.

    1801 A.jpg 1801 B.jpg 1801 A - Subject - B Comparison.jpg
     
  21. coinquest1961

    coinquest1961 Well-Known Member

    I know Larry and think he's a good guy. And SEGS takes a lot of undeserved criticism IMO though they may not quite rank up there with the "big boys." I slabbed with SEGS right after they started grading and was always pleased with the grades I got with just a few exceptions. I had to quit slabbing due to the aforementioned bad market acceptance for the slab and several of the coins I broke out of SEGS slabs (a tough thing to do BTW) actually upgraded at PCGS. A smaller number downgraded by a point or two but most stayed at the same grade.

    Larry has had some significant health problems (pain) for a number of years which may account for his rude behavior. I've known him for over 20 years and he's always been quite cordial with me.

    CLV1 has hit the nail on the head-buy the coin and not the slab. Unfortunately it's gotten to the point that many collectors can't do that anymore.
     
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