Featured My experience with one of the Top 4 TPG's

Discussion in 'Coin Chat' started by Beefer518, Mar 18, 2018.

  1. AnonymousCoinCollector

    AnonymousCoinCollector Reintroduce silver coins to circulation!

    While I appreiate the insight into how TPGs grade, and am looking forward to your detailed analysis, it comes off as a little odd to me that much of your initial defense (for lack of a better word) is "well they do it too!!! See!!!"
    Yes, we all know grading can at times be highly subjective.
    The truth of the matter is that ICG is barely considered a legitimate grading company. They are not in the same league as PCGS or NGC. You therefore (going forward) have to be better than these other grading companies in terms of expectations and results, because they have a better reputation which results in higher values for identical coins with identical grades. More of the same won't get you anywhere.
     
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  3. Mainebill

    Mainebill Bethany Danielle

    And I’ll be the first to say there’s a lot of problem coins in straight grade ngc and pcgs holders. I’ve had enough of them. Both in borderline coins hat went straight and In straight graded coins I bought sight unseen and would never have in hand
     
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  4. Insider

    Insider Talent on loan from...

    Shucks, I was going to bed. :hilarious::hilarious:

    AnonymousCoinCollector, posted: "While I appreiate the insight into how TPGs grade, and am looking forward to your detailed analysis, it comes off as a little odd to me that much of your initial defense (for lack of a better word) is "well they do it too!!! See!!!"

    As I wrote, IMHO, there is nothing to defend (lack of better word) as if I remember (we'll see tomorrow) I only disagreed with one grade assigned to the coins in the office. I'm taking the time to explain the real world inside the grading room to folks who were not there. My intro post and your post crossed so I'm going to answer this.

    "Yes, we all know grading can at times be highly subjective." That's what we are going to discuss. Fortunately, the closer a person's subjective grading is to the TPGS and the commercial market, the better his/her SUBJECTIVE OPINION will be.
    "The truth of the matter is that ICG is barely considered a legitimate grading company. They are not in the same league as PCGS or NGC."

    It appears that you don't live in the southern US and attend shows there. I'm sorry that you and others feel that ICG is a dump. The truth is that in spite of my protestations the owner of our company likes things just the way they are and is content with our position which may or may not be as you believe. We all have opinions. I read yours. :wacky:

    "You therefore (going forward) have to be better than these other grading companies in terms of expectations and results, because they have a better reputation which results in higher values for identical coins with identical grades. More of the same won't get you anywhere."

    :rolleyes: :hilarious::hilarious::hilarious: If you knew anything about the commercial coin market and the folks who make the rules you would know that ICG, SEGS, and ANACS could pay you $50 for each coin you submitted to them and then slab your coins for free plus pay the postage both ways and NOTHING WOULD CHANGE. I hope I made this very simple for you to grasp. :kiss:

    As I wrote above, I have nothing to defend. I'm going to try to explain how the OP's coins were graded. I should be very helpful. I'll look forward to more posts from you also.


     
    Last edited: Mar 21, 2018
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  5. Mainebill

    Mainebill Bethany Danielle

    2D1FF134-4E52-4849-9750-786FD18348FC.jpeg DA095235-B957-446D-AD77-3ED152604247.jpeg This coin looks great right. Yeah I thought so too. Looked ok a ta first glance too until I got it in the light and tilted it. Hairlined all over. Old cleaned with a coarse cloth. Looked worse under a loupe these pics weren’t juiced either. Seller pics. Looked like this in hand too until closely inspected
     
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  6. baseball21

    baseball21 Well-Known Member

    He pretty much flat out told you PCGS is number one by a wide margin with his statements and never said they were. I’m one of the biggest propents of the PCGS/Ngc only but if you like like ANACS you should like ICG
     
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  7. Beefer518

    Beefer518 Well-Known Member

    gulp-29396110.png
     
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  8. mynamespat

    mynamespat Well-Known Member

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  9. AnonymousCoinCollector

    AnonymousCoinCollector Reintroduce silver coins to circulation!

    All I am saying is that what Ive heard many times, even in this thread: you submit to ICG to get problem coins into a slab without a details grade.
    Or to get a higher grade than the coin actually deserves.

    This is their reputation: that you can't trust their grades.

    Of course other TPGs make mistakes, but on the whole, ICG has earned this reputation. When I see coins in an ICG slab, its a big red flag to me. If the owner is making money, and likes what his company does, more power to him. I'm not asking him to change.
    But lets not kid ourselves about who we are talking about here.
     
  10. JayF

    JayF Active Member


    This is a great thread and it is informative, thank you to Beefer for the post but off topic, if you don't mind giving me the link to the ebay listing? It's for a totally different reason not related to grading or TPGs.

    Sorry @Beefer518 (not trying to hijack your post)
     
  11. Insider

    Insider Talent on loan from...

    AnonymousCoinCollector, posted: "All I am saying is that what Ive heard many times, even in this thread: you submit to ICG to get problem coins into a slab without a details grade. Or to get a higher grade than the coin actually deserves.
    This is their reputation: that you can't trust their grades."

    I heard that you are a misinformed idiot and see in this discussion that apparently you have a low level of reading comprehension!

    Do you understand what I wrote. A total bunch of malarkey as I don't know you, have never heard of you, have no idea of you numismatic grading skills, etc. In other words, I cannot judge you. AFAIK, there are less than three folks posting on this thread that have actually sent a coin to ICG. We have no idea how many folks posting here even look at ICG slabs at a show. Many say they don't bother. Therefore, many opinions come from folks who listen to rumors. When I give a class, I tell students we are not going to talk about TPGS grading errors as that would take a week!

    Did you know that the major TPGS's have dealer networks? Why should an NGC or PCGS dealer let folks know ANACS and ICG is just as good! There is a reason CAC will only sticker NGC and PCGS slabs. Hopefully, that does not need to be explained either.


    "Of course other TPGs make mistakes, but on the whole, ICG has earned this reputation. When I see coins in an ICG slab, its a big red flag to me. If the owner is making money, and likes what his company does, more power to him. I'm not asking him to change. But lets not kid ourselves about who we are talking about here."

    I have learned to be entertained by the postings of misinformed members. Please keep posting! I hope you will reply to my evaluation of the OP's coins later. :D
     
  12. C-B-D

    C-B-D Well-Known Member

    I have always suspected this. Thank you. Many times, however, it DOES matter to collectors and dealers like myself. If I get an AU details cleaned Capped Bust Half, I can auction it off for $150-$200. But if the TPG gives it an UNC details Cleaned, I can get $400-$500 for it. So it does matter to me. I guess I just wish the TPG graders would still "grade" the details coin accurately. (Having said that, I do appreciate ICG and ANACS giving numerical details grades).
     
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  13. Beefer518

    Beefer518 Well-Known Member

    I agree 110% with this. Having that number assigned, even on a details coin makes a huge difference.
     
  14. Insider

    Insider Talent on loan from...

    Remember, This is my observable opinion. It is NOT THE WAY I GRADE.
     
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  15. Jeepfreak81

    Jeepfreak81 Well-Known Member

    As a new member and somebody who's looking to get more serious about this hobby I'm following this thread closely. A few weeks ago I didn't even know that TPGS were a thing. I worked for Littleton Coin for a short period about 18 years ago and the grading they did in house was the only thing I'd really been exposed to at that point (all I did was fill orders BTW). Thank you @Insider for sharing and I look forward to your post about the OP's coins
     
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  16. Insider

    Insider Talent on loan from...

    I am happy to report that for today and many years, from what I have seen, the company you mention has been grading the coins they sell very conservatively. :happy:
     
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  17. GDJMSP

    GDJMSP Numismatist Moderator

    And that's the thing right there isn't it ? The only reason it matters or makes a difference is because you are submitting a raw or cracked out coin - that you paid for - and you want to be able to get as much money out of it as you can.

    Well, I get that, and if you're in the business of selling coins I can't fault you for it either because that is the business of business - to make money.

    But ask yourself a question, why is it that it is possible to do this ? Why is it that the number on the slab makes a difference ?

    The answer's quite simple really, it's because the people who are buying those coins haven't got a clue about what they are doing. They don't know anything about coins. The one and only thing they care about is the number on the slab.

    There's probably a whole lot of people here who can't even remember when the TPGs refused, flat out refused and swore up and down, in writing, on everything holy that they would never, ever, put a problem coin in a slab - period ! And they did this for over 20 years.

    Do you know why that was the case, do you know why they refused to slab problem coins ? The answer is described in what I have written and quoted above. It is because they knew that people who don't know anything would still trust the slab and that what we have today would be the result ! People paying money, way more money than the coin is actually worth, for problem coins simply because they are encased in a piece of plastic.

    Ya see, back when the TPGs first started they became successful for one reason, because their opinions mattered. They had rules, they had high and strict grading standards, standards that meant something, standards that people could depend on.

    For decades prior to that it was the norm for coins to be graded all over the map, every different dealer and collector had different standards and nobody, absolutely nobody, could trust or have any confidence in the grade the seller assigned to a coin. People who actually knew coins, the best minds and best numismatist in the hobby knew for an absolute fact that coins were being grossly over-graded - all the time. And they were fed up with it - everybody in the hobby was ! So they all (including the very people who would later start the TPGs) got together, sat down and said, OK let's put an end to this nonsense ! And what they came up with was the 1986 ANA grading standards. And then a few of those very people who wrote those grading standards started PCGS. Not even a year later, there were disagreements among themselves about how things should be done, about how coins should be graded. And so some split off and started NGC.

    Now ANACS had existed for quite a few years before this but they were not really accepted and used industry wide. There were some problems with their method like it was too easy to swap coins out because tamper proof slabs didn't exist at the time. Some people used them but not enough to really matter. And it wasn't until PCGS and NGC came along that a sea change occurred. Once they came along everything changed. And like I said, that sea change was possible because their opinions mattered, and they mattered because they were consistent in what they did - they did not break their own rules, they did no violate their own standards. And people came to depend on this - they trusted them. And best of all, the trust was deserved, earned !

    But then, everything changed. Mike, (Insider) knows all of this, he lived through it, was a part of all of it, going clear back to the beginning of ANACS. Long before PCGS and NGC even existed. I lived through it too, but I was in no way a part of it, I was merely an observer. A few here on this forum were as well, and some may well remember things differently. But what I've related is what happened.

    The TPGs threw all their rules and standards out the window. Things they said they would never do, they did. Standards they said they would never change, they did. They started giving people what they wanted, instead of true and honest grades based on long established and accepted standards. And they got away with with it for one reason, well 2 reasons really. It was because of the trust that had been so hard earned over many years, and because they were giving people what they wanted - no matter what they wanted !

    And today, we are stuck with the mess we have because we, people, are our own worst enemies. We're pretty much right back to where we started where coins are routinely grossly over-graded. And it's even worse than it ever was because now they put problem coins in slabs to. In today's world the TPGs are not even a shadow of what they once were !
     
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  18. Insider

    Insider Talent on loan from...

    GDJMSP, posted: "And that's the thing right there isn't it ? The only reason it matters or makes a difference is because you are submitting a raw or cracked out coin - that you paid for - and you want to be able to get as much money out of it as you can.

    Well, I get that, and if you're in the business of selling coins I can't fault you for it either because that is the business of business - to make money.

    But ask yourself a question, why is it that it is possible to do this ? Why is it that the number on the slab makes a difference ?

    The answer's quite simple really, it's because the people who are buying those coins haven't got a clue about what they are doing. They don't know anything about coins. The one and only thing they care about is the number on the slab.

    There's probably a whole lot of people here who can't even remember when the TPGs refused, flat out refused and swore up and down, in writing, on everything holy that they would never, ever, put a problem coin in a slab - period ! And they did this for over 20 years.

    Do you know why that was the case, do you know why they refused to slab problem coins ? The answer is described in what I have written and quoted above. It is because they knew that people who don't know anything would still trust the slab and that what we have today would be the result ! People paying money, way more money than the coin is actually worth, for problem coins simply because they are encased in a piece of plastic.

    Ya see, back when the TPGs first started they became successful for one reason, because their opinions mattered. They had rules, they had high and strict grading standards, standards that meant something, standards that people could depend on.

    For decades prior to that it was the norm for coins to be graded all over the map, every different dealer and collector had different standards and nobody, absolutely nobody, could trust or have any confidence in the grade the seller assigned to a coin. People who actually knew coins, the best minds and best numismatist in the hobby knew for an absolute fact that coins were being grossly over-graded - all the time. And they were fed up with it - everybody in the hobby was ! So they all (including the very people who would later start the TPGs) got together, sat down and said, OK let's put an end to this nonsense ! And what they came up with was the 1986 ANA grading standards. And then a few of those very people who wrote those grading standards started PCGS. Not even a year later, there were disagreements among themselves about how things should be done, about how coins should be graded. And so some split off and started NGC.

    Now ANACS had existed for quite a few years before this but they were not really accepted and used industry wide. There were some problems with their method like it was too easy to swap coins out because tamper proof slabs didn't exist at the time. Some people used them but not enough to really matter. And it wasn't until PCGS and NGC came along that a sea change occurred. Once they came along everything changed. And like I said, that sea change was possible because their opinions mattered, and they mattered because they were consistent in what they did - they did not break their own rules, they did no violate their own standards. And people came to depend on this - they trusted them. And best of all, the trust was deserved, earned !

    But then, everything changed. Mike, (Insider) knows all of this, he lived through it, was a part of all of it, going clear back to the beginning of ANACS. Long before PCGS and NGC even existed. I lived through it too, but I was in no way a part of it, I was merely an observer. A few here on this forum were as well, and some may well remember things differently. But what I've related is what happened.

    The TPGs threw all their rules and standards out the window. Things they said they would never do, they did. Standards they said they would never change, they did. They started giving people what they wanted, instead of true and honest grades based on long established and accepted standards. And they got away with with it for one reason, well 2 reasons really. It was because of the trust that had been so hard earned over many years, and because they were giving people what they wanted - no matter what they wanted !

    And today, we are stuck with the mess we have because we, people, are our own worst enemies. We're pretty much right back to where we started where coins are routinely grossly over-graded. And it's even worse than it ever was because now they put problem coins in slabs to. In today's world the TPGs are not even a shadow of what they once were!"

    Very well said! Thanks for taking the time to explain a little history. All I'll add is that even after the ANA Grading Standards were published, many influential numismatists did not follow them. :(
     
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  19. C-B-D

    C-B-D Well-Known Member

    Doug, thanks for the same speech you've been giving for years. LOL. Much I agree with. It's just plain true. But some problem coins deserve a sealed, tamper-free holder. They are that important, and should not be in an airtight or rattling around loose in a bodybag. And that should be understandable to everyone.
     
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  20. Insider

    Insider Talent on loan from...

    C-B-D, posted: "Doug, thanks for the same speech you've been giving for years. LOL. Much I agree with. It's just plain true. But some problem coins deserve a sealed, tamper-free holder. They are that important, and should not be in an airtight or rattling around loose in a bodybag. And that should be understandable to everyone."

    There is nothing wrong with slabbing coins with problems. Lewis Revels came up with the idea in the 1990's and PCI was the first service to do it using a red border label rather than green. He said if he would have realized the popularity ($$$$) of that service vs the "body bags" he would have done it at the beginning.
    Unfortunately, dealers bragged to us that they could get many of the PCI "rejects" straight graded by the two major services. "Market Acceptable" is a weasel word that still applies today.
     
  21. asheland

    asheland The Silver Lion

    Great thread!
     
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