Featured My experience with one of the Top 4 TPG's

I’m a newbie but am totally admiring that V Nickel! ( Huge nickel fan, mostly Jefferson though) I’ve acquired 9 Vs in the last 3 months of returning to the hobby but your coin is by far more amazing than any of mine. I have 2 with Full liberty (1899,& 1907) and one with half of Liberty still apparent. Now that I think about it , I don’t think there is a strand of hair detail left on any of mine! Haha.

Oooh. After checking I see there actually is some detail left!
Anyway , thanks a bunch for the post , I truely enjoyed it and it was informative. I personally have not graded any coins, but I do own 3 that have been slabbed by an unpopular coin company (AACGS)(third photo below) that probably grades there own coins to sell higher. I got the three piece fairly cheap at a flea market, 2 XF Liberty half dollars and , 1 MS63 Franklin Half. I wonder if they’d really grade that high with the bigger “top 4” companies!

 

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I just pulled this off the PCGS forum: This coin was straight graded as an MS-63 by PCGS. The image on Ebay was taken so the scratch was not visible. The buyer won the dispute with the seller and is returning the coin. In actuality, the TPGS gave it a "Net" grade. See the problem? They could have "Detailed" it or put a "Net" grade to reflect its value. Decisions like this are made on a minute to minute time frame with thousands of coins a day at the TPGS's. Who is wrong? The two professionals and finalizer who "straight" graded it. The dealer who sells it as an MS-63? The buyer (unlike this one) who keeps the coin for his MS-63 Buffalo set. Our you and I who will have a PERSONAL opinion from this image.

TPGS's make the call and label the coin to reflect that opinion. We can and SHOULD disagree when warranted (in our opinion) without posting any ignorant, self-righteous, nonsense.


I quote from the OP who though the coin was a 64 to 65 and asked: "What am I missing?:"

"For those of you that thought along the lines that while I did not miss something, perhaps the image did, bingo! Seller kicked and screamed saying his images were accurate and that he was entitled to restocking fee. EBay felt otherwise. Case in my favor. Back it goes. Note the huge scratches that I have pointed red arrows to. Amazing it graded at all."

 

The cats out of the bag !!!

Getcha popcorn ready! This should be better than an article in coinworld magazine !!

 

Hopefully, we will all learn from each other. The OP's images in this thread and the coins he sent in to ICG will make excellent examples of the typical coin sent in to a TPGS. This type of discussion goes on in the "Advanced Grading Seminars" where the class and even both instructors argue with each other about the "correct" grade.

 

Agreed. I have seen far more subtle scratches "bagged".

 

@V. Kurt Bellman,

The quote you attributed to me is incorrect. Possibly because I left the final quotation marks off another man's opinion of the coin: "For those of you that thought along the lines that while I did not miss something, perhaps the image did, bingo! Seller kicked and screamed saying his images were accurate and that he was entitled to restocking fee. EBay felt otherwise. Case in my favor. Back it goes. Note the huge scratches that I have pointed red arrows to. Amazing it graded at all."

 

I may not be the popular opinion but I am in complete favor of the net grading of minor issues. Anytime there’s something that looks WAY undergraded it’s a net grade. Purists may hate that but does anyone really want the overwhelming majority of actually old series detailed, I know I don’t

 

Where do I start throwing the knives.

Net grading is fine for the little group (thousands of EAC professionals) living in the world of copper. They have been at it for so long (just published an EAC Grading Guide) they pretend to understand a system that they admit in their grading guide is confusing and not standard or routinely duplicated even by their own members. Sound familiar to the one we and the TPGS's use?

The problem is that the original "Technical Grading System" developed in Washington, DC in 1973 was easy to understand, easy to teach, easy to use, consistent over the passing years, etc.

"Net Grading" as practiced by anyone is inconsistent, hard to explain, and impossible to teach. I was in attendance with the Director of ANACS at the first grading roundtable in NYC. The futility of developing an ANA Grading Guide became apparent when over a dozen successful, well known, and famous professional numismatists graded an early Large cent that was a perfect match for the XF coin in Photograde from VF to AU for various reasons! That was the only evidence I needed to confirm the "folly" of net grading a coin?

Now, I'll take some knives too.

 

I own the EAC book too where like the ANA book people misinterpret it. I think net grading is over complicated a lot of times, it’s simply if it’s not that bad it’ll drop x grades and straight grade. Old issues are more likely to get netted than something yesterday ect.

The whole idea of some grading higher power that people always want to refer to gets me a little too, I certainly respect experts but I also realize a lot of experts have inventory and their coins generally seem to get better reviews. I’m younger and I think most younger collectors would agree that the whole in our day we did it better grading thing is just annoying to hear.

Ps do another special for submissions as I honesty do prefer ICG over ANACS but sometimes they’re just to much cheaper

 

Here is a dirty little secret. We get several calls a month from folks who try to get ICG to slab their coins for six dollars each! They claim one of the other services offers that rate but for some unknown reason to me, they think we need to discount our business also. NO WAY, suckers!

Grading services are helpful. I can find both good and bad reasons to use each of them. Each of us gets to choose our favorite.

 

Rethink that in all honesty. ANACS is getting a lot with their 10 dollar specials at shows. You’ll get a lot of that if the price is more competitive.


As far as that 6 if you submit enough yes that’s probably true

 

The show special that I used (coins in the OP), was $10 each.

 

Same with mine, and if ICG had their special they had at the start of the year they would have all gone to them instead. They didn't so they went to ANACS

 

I recently saw a PCGS grading on a Buffalo with a scratch like this and they marked it as "graffiti."

 

AFAIK, ANACS runs $10 Specials several times a year. ICG charges $10 at shows and very often runs a $10 Special after the ANACS special starts. If it were up to me , there would be no such thing as a $10 rate at any TPGS!
Furthermore, If I were a collector, I would not let the price determine the TPGS I would choose. With the way the market works today, PCGS would get all my business in spite of the fact that and I prefer another service.

Graffiti is something that means something. It can be letters, drawings, numbers, or combinations of these marks. Random scratches as on the Bison are not considered graffiti.

 

They run the special at shows too if you submit there so they almost always have the 10 dollar thing.

I strongly agree about PCGS for most things, I just think their new model with the new CEO is pricing themselves out of the cheaper market which is where these specials are designed to get the business from

 

I don’t submit to ICG and anacs as the market value is so much stronger for pcgs and ngc and to me in that order. I send more pcgs. Rejects to ngc as well as colonials early copper errors etc that I feel they’re fat better or far cheaper. I’d send world and ancients there too I may send some of my contemporary counterfeits to them at some point though. I’m glad they slab them. Better that than new counterfeits. Ie 64 peace dollars and the like

 

I'm going to start my answers - may not finish tonight.

First some background to the OP's test, most of which should be well known.

1. Plenty of times, a coin with an obvious problem is straight graded; especially with regard to cleaning, damage, and scratches. The lower its condition the more chance it will happen. That's because most old coins have defects. I don't agree with this but I don't make the rules. So, buy the coin based on what you tolerate and make darn sure you know the proper way to examine a coin so you don't miss something.

2. Once a coin is given a "detail" grade, it seems that the coin's actual grade does not matter so much at a TPGS. It becomes a "who cares." Therefore, detail graded coins can seem to be graded all over the place. Net graded and still detailed; graded accurately and detailed; or over-graded yet detailed.

3. All graders must grade by company standards. There was a note on a computer at one TPGS that read: "Monkey see, monkey do, monkey get rich."
I believe my personal grading standards are more strict than 99% of the numismatists in the U.S. However, there are commercial standards in the market and company standards I've had to follow at each of the five companies I've worked at. Company standards must be fair to the buyer, the seller, the coin, and in line with the real commercial world. That is one reason there is gradflation. The values of coins tends to rise over time.

4. Based on what I see and my experience guessing the assigned grades on NGC and PCGS slabs that are shown to me at shows and sent into ICG to cross, we all grade basically the same. I cannot speak about ANACS because I see less than a dozen of their slabs in a year (as of today - none). However, I should bet they grade as well as the others.

5. We can find examples of over-graded and correctly graded coins in all TPGS slabs. Under-graded coins are also around but they are found and up-graded quickly by folks who can grade for themselves.

6. It is in the best interest of a TPGS to do a good job, give accurate opinions, and offer a guarantee. If they don't do it right, they will not stay in business and business this year has been very good. Each TPGS has pluses and minuses. We all know that ANACS and ICG coins are discounted so there are very many great buys to be had.

7. I tell my students to try all the services and make up your own mind which is best for you.

Finally, a plug for ICG:

Since the grading is similar, the only things ICG can offer that the top two services cannot match is the speed of service, free conservation, low cost, and a personal connection (in person or on the phone at any time) with the folks who grade your coins. ICG is the only TPGS that sends a professional grader with over forty years of experience to every show they attend to give free opinions and discuss submissions. They are available during the show hours. NGC and PCGS have a grader available at major shows for an hour each day but you must make an appointment. ANACS has a professional grader at major shows giving free opinions. Unfortunately, at most shows they are at, there is some local guy (NOT a professional TPGS grader) accepting submissions. That is the reason "ANACS" is seen all over the country. If we cannot do it "right," we don't do it.

I'll get to the OP's coins tomorrow.