MS vs PF

Maybe this is a silly question, but when it comes to grading, what is the difference between MS and PF?

 

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PF stands for Proof. MS stands for Mint State and is used to describe an uncirculated coin intended for circulation (aka Business Strike). PF is not a higher grade than MS. A coin is either a Business Strike (intended for circulation) or Proof (made for collectors).

Proof is a method of manufacture. Once a Proof coin, always a Proof coin. Even a circulated Proof coin will have a PF grade (of less than 60).

This information can be found in your Red Book.

 

EDIT: Beat me too it..

 

In MY Red Book? I don't have one. However, I am gonna pre-order the 2012 one with my tax return. YAAY free money!

Follow up question: If I had 2 coins with the same grades (lets say MS 60 and PF 60) and there is nothing special about either one. Both have similar demand and about the same amount were made that year. Which would cost more? Maybe that is a sillier question than the first. Are they 2 completely separate things?

 

They are two seperate things. Everything could be exactly the same; date, numerical grade, etc. but one is a proof. A completely different type of coin. Generally proofs will go for higher prices. BTW proof mintings are significantly less because they do not have to fill a demand for circulation, which also adds to the value.

Example: 2007D Montana State Quarter
Circulation minting=256,240,000
Proof minting (non-silver)=2,002,812.
MS65 value= roughly up to $0.60
PF65 value= roughly up to $4.00
(I say roughly because those values are from the current Redbook, in which prices are generally inflated.)

So as you can see, there is a huge difference in minting amounts which inherently affects value to an extent.

Proofs are collector pieces. They are made to be the best possible example of a coin, so with that you can expect higher prices.

 

I see. Very good description.

 

You should really pick up a 2011 Redbook since 2012 is a ways off. They can be found for around $9 on certain websites, and just by looking through the pages without reading in too much detail you can learn alot. It's really an incredible reference to have, you just can't expect the prices to be right. With that description all I did was flip to a random page and picked a coin. All of the coins listed in there have info like that, some have even more.

Also go on google sometime and look up images of modern proof coins, or cameo proof coins. (Just pick Proof Quarter, Proof Half Dollar, etc. just to get an idea). You should immediately see the difference, and why they are collectors pieces. I would show you but I don't own any proof coins, and I would rather not pull one from google.

 

That is true but there are exceptions. The 1877 IHC is a notable example.

Grey Sheet for 1877 IHC is as follows (Bid/Ask):

MS-60 - $2,770/$3,000
PF-60 - $2,000/$2,200

MS-63B - $3,760/$4,050
PF-63B - $2,350/$2,550

MS-64RB - $6,500/$7,100
PF64RB - $3,200/$3,450

MS-65RB - $10,000/$11,000
PF-65RB - $5,100/$5,500

 

Hence why I said generally

 

I'm pretty sure the 2012 red book comes out in April. At least, they have come out in April in previous years according to the internet (which we all know is true 100% of the time). Please tell me if I'm wrong. I don't want to order it then find out I have to wait for, like, 1000 years to get it.

Is the only physical difference between proof and regular is proof has a mirror-like background? and an S mintmark of course. What year did the S's stop being circulated? Has anyone ever found a proof coin in their change? Do I ask too many questions?

 

That may be true about the Redbook, I'm not actually sure. (I've only bought one and it was after the year had started already)

That is the major physical difference, atleast that's easily noticeable. But it goes much more detailed than that. Proof coins are struck multiple times, which gives them an extremely fine level of detail. All of the edges on the dates and wording, etc. are very crisp and clear. The rims are often times much thicker as well. The mirror finish is the most noticeable but compare it to a circulation strike and the proof should stand out in all areas.

And as far as the S mintmark goes I know on Lincoln Cents 1974 was the last year San Francisco (S) struck them for circulation. It was on and off a few times before that as well. I don't know if that's the same for other denominations though.

Also proof coins aren't common in change but it happens. The running idea is that "Johnny" got into dad or grandpas collection and went and bought something. (it could have been different circumstances of course, but you get the idea). One of the guys who helps out at my nearest dealer said he's found tons at his other job.

 

2012 may be a aways off, but the 2012 Redbook should be out I think next month.

 

It's considered the top manuscript for information on U.S. coins. Theire price guide is 20% over FMV, but the information is exceptional.

 

You can order it now, ships April 5, 2011.

http://www.whitmanbooks.com/Default.aspx?Page=81&ProductID=0794833497

 

Free money?!?
No, your own money, held by the government, at zero interest, all of last year against your will.

 

Assuming we're all talking about the US, you have a great deal of control over how much money the government withholds from your paycheck. I agree that the joy of a big tax return is poor compensation for a year's lost interest, but you address that by adjusting your deductions, not by griping about it.

 

Free money? Not so, your just getting back what you overpaid.

 

m

One more thing to add Mint stage /MS normally have a lower mintage that Proof.
but that with Modern Comm 1982-today

 

With the market conditions you describe they would both sell for the same price.

As some have noted, the proof mintage is typically only a fraction of the circulation strike mintage. That coupled with the fact that some collectors enjoy the beauty of proof strikes creates a market for most proof coins and drives their prices upward. In order to have the same effect on a MS coin, demand for the circulation strike coin would have to multiply by over 10,000 fold. The numbers seem to favor proof coins, but there are always exceptions to every rule and PF vs. MS really is no different.

hope that helps

 

Not sure what you are trying to say. If you are trying to say "Mint state coins normally have a lower mintage than Proof coins" then I would have to disagree. When Business Strike coins (intended for circulation) are struck they are by definition Mint State. Business Strike coins are made by the billions. Proof coins, on the other hand, are made in much less quantities.