My point exactly Vegas Vic. When you see the overwhelming majority the MS69’s have over all other grades, makes me wonder what the spread is of these MS69’s down to the uncirculated condition. So why have grades from MS60 through MS70 ? All of those MS69 could just be an uncirculated coin. Dave
Honestly I truly believe 90% ( do you like my now properly stated? ) of the reason coins are graded modern is for registry competition. I believe the price pressure is created by people who want to be high up or at the top somewhere on the pcgs or ngc registry and if they can't spend six or seven figures to get there they will spend five just for the "honor". Again just my opinion I have no data to support this state.
Toning, on all coins, begins at the very instant that the coin leaves the dies. So every coin ever minted is toned, granted to a limited degree, before that coin ever leaves the mint. So by your logic there could never be any such thing as a mint state coin. That's why toning, at least until it reaches it's terminal stage, does not prevent a coin from being graded as MS.
I hadn't imagined before that it was about Registry "gameification" (my word), but now I need to noodle on that idea some more. I seriously don't get any warm fuzzies from the idea of turning numismatics into a scored competitive game. It sickens me a little. For me, numismatics is about people, medalic technology and art appreciation, the stories of coins and the historical and economic history perspectives that led to them, and appreciation of the intrinsic beauty of them (the very common large copper France 10 centimes from the early 20th century for example - common as all get out, but stunningly beautiful artistry). It never occurred to me to turn it into something that needs a scorekeeper, either in $ terms or grading points. Even my "outside my usual schtick" clad Kennedy HR set I view as primarily a keepsake of the 2014 Chicago show, not as a valuable coin in the big picture. Heck, I bought the Chicago Coin Club's 2-medal Ferris Wheel set at nearly $100, too. Nobody's listing those babies in a registry. Registries? I'm clearly not the target audience. I use NGC's collection database thingy, but never did a registry, 'cuz it never interested me, despite the fact it's "in my face" every time I log on.
As Vic and I agreed from the top, the intermediate sixty-something grades are VERY relevant in the "made to be circulating quality" coin range. In a fresh bunch of rolls of circ. quality coins today, you probably have 63's to 66's mostly, with a few 62's, a few 67's, and extraordinarily rarely anything higher or lower. 60-68 matters, but not much in "made for collectors" coins, you're spot on correct about that. Due to their various weights and ability to damage one another from bin contact, smaller coins, other than post-82 cents, which are disasters in waiting, will tend to run a little higher than dollars and halves will. That's why finding a MS67 regular roll JFK floored me.
I have a "strictly a guess" theory that because of the anniversary they might have paid a little more attention to avoiding post-strike "jangling" of the garden variety halves this year. I submitted the best P and best D I had left after giving some out around Rosemont in tips. I thought my D was slightly nicer, but it only got a 66. I did have one sweet D except for obvious rim nicks, while the two sides were great, but I chose another one.
I am beginning to think its a game really...politics for coins. I have yet to submit anything and they way things are going I will not. I even had a free one from ANACS and I did not do it.
I agree it is a game, but it is the buyers not the tpg's that are the ones playing the game. I honestly can't tell the difference between a 69 vs 70. I have a feeling if you cracked one hundred of these coins out you would get at least a 30% grading variation. Or way more then what you would get with Morgans. So why other then Registry sets do collectors buy these coins? I don't know but if I have money I would rather buy a seated half then a modern 70 that I would have to use magnification to actually see a difference and with no pm value. That's just me.
I kinda agree with you. But of course you have to admit there are always low and better coins for a certain grade, ie choice coins. Maybe you could just have unc and choice unc. That should suffice. The whole grading racket for a 69 vs 70 is absurd. But apparently people care about such minute and in many cases subjective differences.
Yes Joe, but if I were to look at a bunch of choice coins, I would "Cherry pick" out the ones I think best and pay the appropriate price. Dave
The buyers have no choice in the matter. It's the TPG's that are making the money with the slabbing, causing you and I the buyer to pay higher cost.The reason we pay for the new ratings is because we are required to "Go with the flow". Dave
Interesting V. Kurt, but I wonder since Kennedy's are not a business coin and requires a premium when you buy from the mint, why would you be giving these away ??? Dave
Do you really mean that? I am utterly amazed to read a line like that. The next time in my life I feel like I am "required to 'go with anybody else's flow'", it's time to take a voluntary .45 between my eyes. I don't do no "flow" going along with for ANYBODY! Never have, ain't startin'.
Simple, Dave, to promote the show to the Rosemont locals and their families, why else? It might be one reason why I was awarded one of Pennsylvania's two "Point of Numismatic Light" awards by Walt Ostromecki at the ANA show. Or it might be my regular working my can off as a National Volunteer, or having given 4 Money Talks presentations since 2011. My gig is working as a Research Analyst for my state's House of Representatives, but my passion is promoting this hobby I've been extremely active in for 51 years now.
After going back and re – reading this thread ….. I wish MS 69 and MS 70 grades were as abundant and common as some think they are (and I am only talking about Kennedy half dollars). For most years of the Kennedy series, I am happy if I can find a MS 67 or to really make my day, find a MS 68. I only have two different Kennedy half dollars that have graded MS 70 at PCGS, a 1998-S silver Matte and a 2005-P Satin Finish. A quick look at the PCGS Population Report, the only other year that they have graded a MS 70 is one 2007-D Satin Finish.
My thought came from the comment regarding the difference between ms69 vs ms70. And whether preference is givin to the folks that submit buckets full of coins for grading. A MS70 coin as decided by a grading service should be graded MS70 by a different grading service. Grading is subjective and there may be preference givin within the "good ol boys club". I am going to buy a modern slabbed MS70 from the upcoming coin show in Santa Clara this month. I'm going to crack if. And submit for grading. I will report my findings. Have a happy day.
Everybody gets to set their own standards. I seldom if ever break down OGP to have stuff slabbed, but I've had lots and lots of already-removed-by-someone-else pieces slabbed. To me, a 69 is the VERY SAME THING as a 70, because I agree with you, they are largely unrepeatable, as are many 1 point spreads. I've read enough about crack-out culture to be convinced of that. I don't need more evidence. Therefore, since the idea of registry sets bores me to death, why on earth would I ever pay extra for a 70? I wouldn't and I won't. If I ever own a 70, it'll be because I got one from my own submission, which is kind of unlikely because I mostly only submit stuff that's already removed from OGP. If anyone wants to play the registry game, good for them. Different strokes for different folks. Have lots of fun! This IS ALL SUPPOSED TO BE ENJOYABLE, RIGHT?
Yeah, but all too many derive their enjoyment from competition, and the bragging rights that go with it. Take that away, and they have no enjoyment.
