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<p>[QUOTE="Gallienus, post: 2513328, member: 42034"]I believe your analysis is incorrect from two aspects. These are: 1) Regarding the historical aspects of coins and: 2) The valuation of coins.</p><p><br /></p><p>You wrote: “The supposed “history” only exists in the minds of collectors who imagined it.” Well, the history exists independently of the collectors, and hopefully it was more factually based than just “imagined”. Perhaps what you’re trying to say is the linkage between the historical event and the coin is imagined in the minds of collectors? </p><p><br /></p><p>Let’s look for more “actual causality” in our historical things. One tangible item is the pre dreadnought era battleship USS Oregon (1898, displ: 10,288 tons). She made a historic journey from the Pacific to the Atlantic to fight in the Spanish American War. She was also a classic model of early iron ship design and was THE 1st Warship of the Modern US Navy. Unparalleled historical importance. Unfortunately she was scrapped in 1956 as it was decided the scrap value of the ship exceeded her historical value. </p><p><br /></p><p>I’ve never heard of any private collectors of pre-dreadnought iron warships. Had I only known I could’ve purchased her & kept her someplace (only 10,300 tons). Of course I wasn’t born yet in 1956.</p><p><br /></p><p>What else is there since you don’t wish to compare coins to artwork; which can be very highly valued? Some people collect WW-I and WW-II tanks & armored vehicles. Also vintage WW-II aircraft. Old cars are popular here in Sao Paulo, Brazil, however, are expensive & difficult to keep. </p><p><br /></p><p>Firearms. I’ve always thought it’d be neat to own a nice US Civil War revolver: a Colt model of 1860 or 1851. If you only spend a few thousand or so, you’ll get a fused piece of iron clump found in the ground after a couple of decades, chemically cleaned and completely nonfunctional. For nice things (still not recommended to be fireable) you may need to be in the 10’s of thousands of $. </p><p><br /></p><p>1) On coins & history. Two “historical” examples which I acquired somewhat inexpensively in 2011 and 2015. This is a matched pair in that shown are coins of both sides of an important conflict which shaped the Argentine Nation.</p><p><br /></p><p><img src="http://www.coinsandhistory.com/pix_coin/Arg_8R_1836_both_med.jpg" class="bbCodeImage wysiwygImage" alt="" unselectable="on" /> </p><p>Argentina, silver 8S, possibly an 8 soles or a die trial for a gold 8 escudos, Province of LaRioja, 1836</p><p><br /></p><p><img src="http://www.coinsandhistory.com/pix_coin/Arg_8R_1840_LaRoija_both_med_JE.jpg" class="bbCodeImage wysiwygImage" alt="" unselectable="on" /> </p><p>Argentina, silver 8 Reals, “Republica Argentina”, Rebel forces, 1840</p><p><br /></p><p><br /></p><p><br /></p><p>The 1st coin was issued by General Manual Rosas, known as “tyrant of the Argentines”. He became Governor of the Province of Buenos Aires in 1829 after a war between the Argentine provinces. He was a complete dictator during that period. While coins with his name were issued throughout, portrait coins were only struck in 1836 and then in 1842 with a more mature portrait.</p><p><br /></p><p>All of his large size (crown sized 8 Reals or 8 escudos) portrait coins, are rare. There are only an estimated 5 or so of the silver pieces with perhaps the same number or less in gold. In 1842 there perhaps 12 known gold 8 escudos ???, 1 reported uniface silver 8 Reals (or Soles*), and a larger quantity of silver 2 reals & gold 2 escudos which saw limited circulation. I have a “cheap” AU 2 Reals (prob AU 50 or 53) but have never seen or heard of a better one.</p><p><br /></p><p>On the 2nd coin: there was a serious rebellion of to break free of his (Rosas’) rule and establish an Argentine Republic. These people were called the “Unitarians” and struck “crowns”: silver 8 Reals and gold 8 escudos only in 1840. This was the first coin mentioning “Republic Argentina” & the silver ones are known as “Rebel Pesos”. After the Unitarian defeat in 1841, The dictator Rosas ordered all their coins destroyed. The silver 8 Reals are particularly rare with only about 12 specimens surviving in all grades.</p><p><br /></p><p>The 1836 I bought when the Porfino collection was auctioned by Stacks and the 1840 is from a Jim Elmen (World Wide Coins) auction & is his photograph. I’m working with a guy on this site to buy good coin photography stuff so I can finally decent good photos. Neither of these two coins cost $10,000 and my 2 Reals of Rosas was just a couple of hundred.</p><p><br /></p><p><br /></p><p>2. On coin Valuations. I don’t know if these things will increase in value or not. I’m in good health, and don’t plan to sell them even in the distant future. Are they undervalued regarding other items thought of as historical? </p><p><br /></p><p>By “undervalued” I feel that the value should increase at some point. Right now things are going very well for society and one well known academic even published a book: “The Better Angels of Our Nature” showing a systemic decrease in violence in our society over the past 30 years and predicting greatly improved social conditions and harmony going forward. I tend to disagree with this thesis.</p><p><br /></p><p>While I & many on this site have hardcopy book collections, a lot of man’s knowledge is becoming stored digitally. With even a small disruption in power or a bit of damage, these archives become completely unreadable. Thus I see coins as relatively durable, a way of preserving knowledge or a record of events. They can also represent portable transferable wealth, transferred to one’s heirs, and are difficult to tax. Of course there are opposing factors contributing to a decline in the values of historical coins. I’ll leave it to you to list those.</p><p><br /></p><p><br /></p><p>*Reals & Soles. After the Wars of Independence many of the new nations kept the Spanish Colonial denominations but substituted "Soles" for "Reals".[/QUOTE]</p><p><br /></p>
[QUOTE="Gallienus, post: 2513328, member: 42034"]I believe your analysis is incorrect from two aspects. These are: 1) Regarding the historical aspects of coins and: 2) The valuation of coins. You wrote: “The supposed “history” only exists in the minds of collectors who imagined it.” Well, the history exists independently of the collectors, and hopefully it was more factually based than just “imagined”. Perhaps what you’re trying to say is the linkage between the historical event and the coin is imagined in the minds of collectors? Let’s look for more “actual causality” in our historical things. One tangible item is the pre dreadnought era battleship USS Oregon (1898, displ: 10,288 tons). She made a historic journey from the Pacific to the Atlantic to fight in the Spanish American War. She was also a classic model of early iron ship design and was THE 1st Warship of the Modern US Navy. Unparalleled historical importance. Unfortunately she was scrapped in 1956 as it was decided the scrap value of the ship exceeded her historical value. I’ve never heard of any private collectors of pre-dreadnought iron warships. Had I only known I could’ve purchased her & kept her someplace (only 10,300 tons). Of course I wasn’t born yet in 1956. What else is there since you don’t wish to compare coins to artwork; which can be very highly valued? Some people collect WW-I and WW-II tanks & armored vehicles. Also vintage WW-II aircraft. Old cars are popular here in Sao Paulo, Brazil, however, are expensive & difficult to keep. Firearms. I’ve always thought it’d be neat to own a nice US Civil War revolver: a Colt model of 1860 or 1851. If you only spend a few thousand or so, you’ll get a fused piece of iron clump found in the ground after a couple of decades, chemically cleaned and completely nonfunctional. For nice things (still not recommended to be fireable) you may need to be in the 10’s of thousands of $. 1) On coins & history. Two “historical” examples which I acquired somewhat inexpensively in 2011 and 2015. This is a matched pair in that shown are coins of both sides of an important conflict which shaped the Argentine Nation. [IMG]http://www.coinsandhistory.com/pix_coin/Arg_8R_1836_both_med.jpg[/IMG] Argentina, silver 8S, possibly an 8 soles or a die trial for a gold 8 escudos, Province of LaRioja, 1836 [IMG]http://www.coinsandhistory.com/pix_coin/Arg_8R_1840_LaRoija_both_med_JE.jpg[/IMG] Argentina, silver 8 Reals, “Republica Argentina”, Rebel forces, 1840 The 1st coin was issued by General Manual Rosas, known as “tyrant of the Argentines”. He became Governor of the Province of Buenos Aires in 1829 after a war between the Argentine provinces. He was a complete dictator during that period. While coins with his name were issued throughout, portrait coins were only struck in 1836 and then in 1842 with a more mature portrait. All of his large size (crown sized 8 Reals or 8 escudos) portrait coins, are rare. There are only an estimated 5 or so of the silver pieces with perhaps the same number or less in gold. In 1842 there perhaps 12 known gold 8 escudos ???, 1 reported uniface silver 8 Reals (or Soles*), and a larger quantity of silver 2 reals & gold 2 escudos which saw limited circulation. I have a “cheap” AU 2 Reals (prob AU 50 or 53) but have never seen or heard of a better one. On the 2nd coin: there was a serious rebellion of to break free of his (Rosas’) rule and establish an Argentine Republic. These people were called the “Unitarians” and struck “crowns”: silver 8 Reals and gold 8 escudos only in 1840. This was the first coin mentioning “Republic Argentina” & the silver ones are known as “Rebel Pesos”. After the Unitarian defeat in 1841, The dictator Rosas ordered all their coins destroyed. The silver 8 Reals are particularly rare with only about 12 specimens surviving in all grades. The 1836 I bought when the Porfino collection was auctioned by Stacks and the 1840 is from a Jim Elmen (World Wide Coins) auction & is his photograph. I’m working with a guy on this site to buy good coin photography stuff so I can finally decent good photos. Neither of these two coins cost $10,000 and my 2 Reals of Rosas was just a couple of hundred. 2. On coin Valuations. I don’t know if these things will increase in value or not. I’m in good health, and don’t plan to sell them even in the distant future. Are they undervalued regarding other items thought of as historical? By “undervalued” I feel that the value should increase at some point. Right now things are going very well for society and one well known academic even published a book: “The Better Angels of Our Nature” showing a systemic decrease in violence in our society over the past 30 years and predicting greatly improved social conditions and harmony going forward. I tend to disagree with this thesis. While I & many on this site have hardcopy book collections, a lot of man’s knowledge is becoming stored digitally. With even a small disruption in power or a bit of damage, these archives become completely unreadable. Thus I see coins as relatively durable, a way of preserving knowledge or a record of events. They can also represent portable transferable wealth, transferred to one’s heirs, and are difficult to tax. Of course there are opposing factors contributing to a decline in the values of historical coins. I’ll leave it to you to list those. *Reals & Soles. After the Wars of Independence many of the new nations kept the Spanish Colonial denominations but substituted "Soles" for "Reals".[/QUOTE]
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