Morgans from Thailand (real or fake)

Thanks Mark.

The point you raise (similar look) is a bit disconcerting and one I hadn't considered when I posed the questions...Mike

 

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Toad , he probably just bought a couple of rolls from some guy in China.
rzage

 

I looked at the first three coins on the OP and the reverses appear to be identical and @ 1 o'clock, they all have spaces in-between the denticles. I looked at various ones on Ebay and this trait doesn't appear on the ones I checked. I'm aware of the fact that counterfeiters will use the same reverse die and change the obverse die, because it's too costly to make different reverse dies.

So, my question would be, how did they manage to obtain three different Morgans (1878-S & 1879-P & 1883-P) that used the exact same reverse die (IMO)?

Ribbit

Ps: It is possible the seller cheated and used one pic for the reverse pics on two of the coins, but the one with a mint mark, isn't possible.

 

Toad,

They are clearly not the same reverse die....

First, the 1878 has an S on it. Second, the two P mint coins are clearly different on the reverse (the 83-p appears to have clash marks and a quite different strike than the 79-p).

The similarity near 1 o'clock, if I'm understanding what your saying, is likely a function of the scan, and not evidence of the same countefeit cast/die. Respectfully..Mike

p.s. the blow up shot of the reverse of the 78-s is an O mint coin with a different M number (47 -vs- 39) -- looks like the seller simply made a mistake when linking the larger photo.

 

83-p

79-p

78-s

 

p.s. if I had to guess, these coins are quite real, have been harshly cleaned and/or overdipped some time ago, were stored in the same place after being cleaned/dipped, and have since retoned exhibiting the quite common post-dipping champagne color. In addition, they were scanned, not photographed, which has added to the confusion.

 

If I had to guess, that was a good guess.

 

Being an ex tool & die maker there are many methods of casting , loss of detail is a obvious sign that the casting was made using some sort of granular material , you can get very detailed casts using a modern latex like material , then wizzing or polishing will take out the cast marks . the only way to tell is measuring the coin as when cooling it will shrink .
I'm not sure these are fake & are probably real , just wanted to let you know modern casting methods can be decieving .
rzage

 

On the following three photos, you will be able to tell which coin each came from by the spots, but if you ignore the spots, you will notice all three photos are identical, yet there is one photo for each of the first three coins in the OP (no doubles). Then, look at the legend UNITED STATES OF AMERICA and ONE DOLLAR and where the top tips of each letter is in relation to the spaces in the denticles nearest to the tip. They are all identically located in relation to the denticles.

This is too much of a coincidence and as to die clashes, I would think counterfeit dies would also incur die clashes as they are used, so die clashes are not a good source to use for comparing the three coins. If you can find an identical die clash on a verified authentic coin, then the die clashes are usable.

Ribbit

Ps: I am not saying they are counterfeit, but I am also not saying they are authentic. The similarities cause me concern and because I have concerns, I wouldn't buy them. Also, to whomever said something about cast lines? If you haven't kept up with the news, the Chinese aren't using casting methods any longer. They are going the full route and using presses to make the new counterfeits so there are no cast marks on the new counterfeits. I posted a DBD a long time ago that we finally figured out was a counterfeit (not the slabbed one) and the counterfeiters went the full route and had added edge lettering also that also looked authentic. That was an awesome counterfeit, weighed exactly what it was supposed to weigh (90% silver) and it would fool most anyone who didn't take a triple look at it and compare it to other similar counterfeits.

Ribbit-Ribbit-Ribbit

 

You would think if those were real that the seller would post super clean photos of them. No 3/4 shots or crap like that.

 

Toad,

I appreciate your tenacity, but I am fairly certain denticle-device differences in dies ended in the late 1830s or early 1840s. Said another way, the relationship between the lettering and denticles should look exactly the same.

And by the way, from what I understand the Chineese are still very much using casting methods -- along with more advanced counterfeiting methods -- and I believe it would be incorrect suggest otherwise.

Respectfully submitted...Mike

 

These coins are not being sold by a seller in Kansas. They are in Thailand. Mind you even the Micro-O counterfeits ended up in TPG slabs.

 

I do believe that was my exact point (underlined portion). Someone said something about NOT seeing cast lines and with the more advanced counterfeiting methods, you would not see cast lines since that old method wasn't used. I never said there isn't a single soul left alive that isn't using the casting method. I said they have moved up in the world and are now using better methods, but I never said ALL OF THEM are using the new ways.

There are people who think that if there ain't a cast seam, it's real. That isn't the case any longer and between you and me, I think we covered it.

Ribbit

 

Speaking of sneaking past the experts, does anyone know anything about the Small Date 1848 Braided Hair Cent and when/where it was counterfeited?

Ribbit

Ps: Does anyone own a Small Date 1848 BHC? I'd love to see how well they managed to counterfeit the BHC.

 

Actually, you did infer just that. Here's what you said:

That seemed fairly clear to me, but I undersand what you're saying now, and thank you for the clarification.

Take care...Mike

 

I left out a word, darnit!

I meant they aren't just using casting methods . . .

That's the problem with saying what you're thinking, instead of what you meant. I knew what I meant.

Ribbit

 

While on the subject I would like to know the whereabouts of one of the Micro-O's that got into TPG and were graded. I think that says alot.

 

I'd like to know what TPG(s) was/were duped and I'd still like to see a Small Date 1848 Braided Hair Cent, since it's also been deemed a counterfeit.

Ribbit