Monster toned blue 1911 cent - what do you think?

Discussion in 'US Coins Forum' started by CoinKeeper, Jun 27, 2011.

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  1. ldhair

    ldhair Clean Supporter

    I have to agree. It has that look but I think I still like it.
     
    ldhair, Jul 4, 2011
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  3. GDJMSP

    GDJMSP Numismatist Moderator

    True story, years ago they slabbed them everyday. Today they only slab some of them.

    It's the same problem that it has always been - there is no way to tell AT from NT with any certainty. There just isn't. However, it is known that this blue toning on copper can occur 100% naturally. And it is known that it can occur 100% artificially.
     
    GDJMSP, Jul 4, 2011
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  4. BadThad

    BadThad Calibrated for Lincolns

    Indeed. But a blue toned copper will usually have a color gradient of some sort unless it was intentionally/chemically toned. Notice the transition on this NT coin:
     

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    BadThad, Jul 4, 2011
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  5. GDJMSP

    GDJMSP Numismatist Moderator

    Yeah, but there are no hard and fast rules Thad. There are examples of coins that are every bit as blue as any ever treated with MS70, and those coins were blue long before MS70 (or other products like it) were ever even invented. So it can happen.

    But I'll grant you that in the last 10 years or so blue copper has become a lot more common than it ever was before. And I have no doubt whatsoever that it is due to MS70 being used. And I say that it has been approx 10 years because Greg Marguli (on the NGC forum) is the first person that I can ever recall writing about MS70 turning copper blue. And that was about 10 years ago. And I can also remember that at first a lot of people tried to argue with him and claimed that it wasn't true. But it is true, the stuff turns copper blue.
     
    GDJMSP, Jul 4, 2011
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  6. BadThad

    BadThad Calibrated for Lincolns

    True, all we can do is use our best judgement. For me, I'm very cautious about a blue that looks like it was painted on with water colors.....I pass on those coins routinely, NT or not, if it's at all suspect, I'm like the TPG's. LOL

    Thanks for the history lesson!
     
    BadThad, Jul 4, 2011
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  7. eddiespin

    eddiespin Fast Eddie

    Thad, I just love it when you use big words! :D

    Seriously, no kidding around, do you honestly evaluate toning like that? I've got a better question. Supposing some grader at PCGS got hold of this coin and it "sniffed out" AT for a chemical on it. Better, still, supposing that chemical was one of the very chemicals in your proprietary [am I saying this right?] "conservation formula?" Would you no longer like the toning for that? I'd hope you're aware that much funnier things have happened with these arbitrary and pretentious standards that big market grader has its cult membership all but dizzy trying to apply to evaluate the toning on said coins.
     
    eddiespin, Jul 4, 2011
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  8. mas4492

    mas4492 Junior Member

    PCGS MS64BN:
    [​IMG][​IMG]
     
    mas4492, Jul 4, 2011
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  9. Leadfoot

    Leadfoot there is no spoon

    FWIW, soaps (that contain bases) cause the very same blue effect, and soaps have been used on coins for a very, very long time. This might help explain the observation in your first paragraph.

    Regardless, and FWIW, I agree that there are really no hard and fast rules. But I also agree wholehartedly with Thad's observation (that MS-70 coins don't show transition colors -- the base-induced monochromatic blue is very distinctive and generally devoid of other color [like the blue-green and yellow tones so vivid in his coin]).

    Perhaps most importantly, in the end each collector essentially makes their own rules when it comes to collecting.

    All IMO, of course. :)
     
    Leadfoot, Jul 7, 2011
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  10. GDJMSP

    GDJMSP Numismatist Moderator

    I don't disagree Mike. My only point is that copper can and does turn blue sometimes - without having soap or MS70 used on it.
     
    GDJMSP, Jul 7, 2011
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  11. medoraman

    medoraman Well-Known Member

    Proof of that is ancients. I have a couple of blue copper ancients, (bronze but incomplete mixture). I actually have more ancient artifacts blue, since the artifacts are more pure copper oftentimes. To me it appears blue is a stage before it gets the hard green patina commonly found on copper ancients. I don't think they were MS70ing back then.

    Blue is a rare color usually, but their existence I believe proves under certain circumstances it can be NT. Do I believe US coins toned even blue are NT? No, but have seen some dug up from metal detectorists that were brown/blue or green/blue I believe are NT.
     
    medoraman, Jul 7, 2011
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