Featured Modern counterfeit world coins... train your eyes, get your game up

Some massive high quality Russian counterfeits coming from Czech. I believe a couple are from the same seller.

http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_nkw=chipolino14&LH_Complete=1&LH_Sold=1&rt=nc

http://www.ebay.com/sch/efim_pr/m.html?_nkw=&_armrs=1&_from=&_ipg=25&LH_Complete=1&LH_Sold=1&rt=nc

http://www.ebay.com/sch/kympand/m.html?_nkw=&_armrs=1&_from=&_ipg=25&LH_Complete=1&LH_Sold=1&rt=nc

http://www.ebay.com/sch/jama-dharma...&_from=&_ipg=25&LH_Complete=1&LH_Sold=1&rt=nc

 

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Those Russian coin fakes have been around for the past few years. Slightly sloppy die work and weakness in details, but I agree the quality is very good compared to others and combined with the chemical aging they will fool most collectors. You have to look real close to notice anything off. In some ways they are even more deceiving than all the German thalers posted in this thread.

 

Fake Salzburg thaler: http://www.ebay.com/itm/1761-Austri...D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557

As with previous ones, account is using proxy address in US.

 

Impressive. With a great edge and toning (AT). I can't zoom in and see cast raised dots however the ZERO feedback is an indicator.

John Lorenzo
Numismatist
United States

 

The Chinese are counterfeiting literally millions of coins. Go to their websites in China and you can buy just about any date from any country you want. Whether it's silver, copper or gold. The big problem is the people who are buying it from the Chinese. The smarter ones let the rare dates go in slowly, and then you have the ones who try to dump them very quickly. Now with the obsession of wanting to store and stack silver just added a new outlet for the counterfeit coins.

You see, even on this forum, legitimate reputable dealers have sold counterfeit coins supposedly by accident. Between online sales and flea markets, the outlet is tremendous and the quality is getting better and better every day.

Take a look at some of the fake foreign proof coins. Cases identical, everything is identical. No one in their right mind is going to test it if it's silver. At least with an acid test. The hobby is under attack, how do you police this? I have no idea. Even seasoned collectors have been buying these fakes.

 

Everything you say is true. Policing it doesn't seem like a feasible possibility. Training your eyes is, at least for the older coins. As far as ultra-modern NCLT and bullion, like Pandas... whole different ball game. I've seen some of them in those double sealed cases, correct weight to the third decimal point and all and still completely fake. They managed to get their alloy ratio perfected at least 4-5 years ago to match the dimensions and density of silver, possibly gold too (I can't afford to buy fake gold at genuine prices to destroy them for testing). In years past you could differentiate by the quality of the relief and details, but the lines get more and more blurred every year.

 

Most of the really good ones are struck, especially the German thalers and double thalers.

Yes, the feedback is a sign. But I really discourage people from using indirect evidence such as feedback to rely on. There are people who start a new account or have 0 or low feedback that get on eBay to sell legitimate coins. And relying on feedback also makes one prone to getting fooled by the smarter counterfeit sellers who are wise to this.

 

All the ones that I have seen now are struck coins, not cast. They're even making them out of silver ect. The right weight, the right size. The slabs are being faked exactly. As for EBay you have to check every coin. I don't care if the seller has a million feedbacks or zero. I don't have the pictures right now but I have a real Brazil 1900 discovery set. The 4000 R is the rare one. I have 17 different fakes each one with a different characteristic. I purchased them as fakes, cost me $2 to $20 each. Out of the 17 I would say 15 of them would pass as real. Even to a seasoned collector. I think the only ones who could help a lot are the ANA. To some extent I wish EBay would have left them selling the fakes. At least you would have an up on them because you know what they look like. I think they're selling more than ever and they're right back on EBay. What are they listed now as? Fantasy coins or tokens?

 

"Miao silver", which really doesn't have any silver in it.
http://www.ebay.com/sch/Coins-Paper...=R40|R40&_nkw=miao+silver&LH_Complete=1&rt=nc

 

In June I will start my chapter on fake Chinese Modern coins and will contact you Numismat in the late summer to review it so you can add or edit this ten-twenty page chapter.

John Lorenzo
Numismatist
United States

 

Sure, let me know when John.

 

Colonialjohn,
I would love to see that chapter as well on fake Chinese Modern coins. Would you be willing to share with others?

 

Wow, it is very interesting (and upsetting) to see how much fraudulent stuff is out there... While some of the examples given are obviously not real, there are many that are very difficult to catch (at least by the naked eye.) If the old methods of detecting fakes (tingling, weight, rims, details, magnetic tests, etc) aren't good anymore, then what options do we have??? You don't want to use acid to test a coin and on top of things, I read that some fake coins are actually made of silver/gold? Even fooling certificating companies??? I guess you always have to use common sense and trust your "instinct" (like distrust for anything that has "China" in it), but what else can you do to protect yourself? It is true that now even a perfect feedback is not good enough on eBay and honest dealers sometimes will sell fake coins not knowing that they are not real, so, what comes next??? It is saddening that our beautiful hobby is under attack...

 

Galapac - if you google fake chinese coins you do come across 2-3 websites where some people have put up some nice information on how to avoid buying these types. I will with permission extract this information for the chapter and then couple it with the metallurgy I have worked on for the last couple of years. The problem seems to be is how to avoid buying and spotting these pieces as most people agree when the coin is "IN HAND" it becomes obvious you were taken and in most cases its then too late. All I can do is combine these PRECAUTIONS in this small chapter on this 400 page contemporary counterfeit book due out in 2017. A chapter on these unwanted modern forgeries would serve the reader well. I have intentionally purchased some of these more well made pieces and using stereo microscope, XRF and SEM/EDS have compiled data to help the collector avoid these pieces. I agree - for the casual collector - this will still not be possible it seems to be ripped off - ON OCCASION.

JPL

 

It's great that an article or a series of articles will come out and your book. This is a great benefit. How will it help the beginner collectors? I do not know. Every year the ANA seems to be losing more members and I, myself, have seen these fakes pop up from anywhere from coin shows to flea markets. The Chinese, for every article that comes out, they refine their processes. On the modern and foreign coins you can hardly tell the difference. I've seen on many stamp forums that novice, beginner, and advanced collectors show their stamp and ask for an opinion. Could be a cheap stamp or a rare one. You will either get a 'yes' or 'no'.

The problem I found on the coin forums, when someone tries to ask if it's fake they're hit with 'buy the book first', 'get more experience', generally a very negative attitude. This needs to change if we want to attract new collectors and turn novice into full time. Let's be honest, if they buy a bad coin, it's not so much the price it's that it's fake. We just lost someone who might stay in the hobby.

Too I have seen "experts" that if you show them a scan of the item, for a fee of course, they will give you their opinion.

We have to educate people how to do the test on the silver. There's more than one test then the acid one. How many people do you hear telling collectors or anyone buying silver or gold to do a specific gravity test. But they never explain how to do it.

Fakes have been with us throughout history and they'll always be there. But the new fakes are becoming a threat to the hobby. Then add the silver stackers. You might see these fakes lay in collections for 30 years or more until they show their face again.

 

I am not very good yet at detecting fakes, but the 1901A German 5 Mark (listed above) has a NGC certification number
Certification Number: 3306054-004
and it checks out with NGC. Please tell me how you perceive this coin to be a fake. Thanks
GSDykes

 

On the low end. I have noticed an abundance of 1968 20 Dong Vietnamese (CuNi) UNCIRCULATED coins appearing. They usually sell in the 6 - 10 dollar range. But it is amazing that suddenly so many of these 1968 NICE uncirculated coins appear! I need to download the good images of several and compare to verify my suspicions
GSDykes

 

This is indeed a problem. It's also pretty exhausting to give every such question a thorough answer, so I see where this mentality comes from. While all these things are generally good advice, it doesn't help all too many people. Lots of people find the forums looking for info on a specific coin they purchased or were given. They are not looking to get invested in the hobby and "buy the book".
I have always felt that the basic level counterfeits you find at flea markets are not meant to fool collectors as much as non-numismatists who think they are getting a bargain.

Most of the stuff posted here is more deceiving in the eBay listings/pictures than it is in hand. These are also not even close to the best fakes that are floating about at present, but it's a start.

 

They fake slab coin very good

 

I question why people refuse to buy a catalog first especially when the coin purchased could be more than a couple of hundred dollars and the catalog could be bought for just a fraction of that. Ok, sometimes you may need a specialized catalog for certain coins.

The real problem is this - once you publish anything that identify what are the problems, counterfeiters take this as a lesson to rectify their product. To them, it's business - to us it's a nightmare.

The only thing that's common on ebay these days is sellers do a "hit and run" sale. Sellers open up a new account and sell counterfeit coins that's worth a fair amount of money (if they are genuine). Normally make a couple of grand before they disappear.

Now here's the predicament - ebay takes 10% share and paypal takes another 3-4%. That's a fair bit of commission and this is a good reason why ebay doesn't really want their golden goose taken away. But who exactly are paying for all this? That's right, it's not the sellers but it's the buyers that lose out. The only time ebay / paypal will take serious action is when counterfeits are involved. That's only IF the buyers are able to identify the item(s) counterfeit.

Unlike the case where luxury brands sued ebay a few years ago and ebay ended up having to toughen their act - coins or banknotes are a different matter. Mints or local monetary issuer may have legal course with recent issues but for anything that's issued a few decades ago, there is no recourse. To top it up, when you are dealing with foreign coins, it just makes it too difficult.

The only solution that I can see is to flood the market with counterfeits, making people aware of them and educate the public. Literally using fire to fight fire.