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<p>[QUOTE="FitzNigel, post: 2759886, member: 74712"]<font size="3">[ATTACH=full]634121[/ATTACH] </font></p><p><font size="3">Norman lands are in pink. Original image was found </font><a href="https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-4m6JKUBqffI/T5Y9cShLtMI/AAAAAAAAAS8/22u2cgaQ354/s640/normans-map-1100.jpg" target="_blank" class="externalLink ProxyLink" data-proxy-href="https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-4m6JKUBqffI/T5Y9cShLtMI/AAAAAAAAAS8/22u2cgaQ354/s640/normans-map-1100.jpg" rel="nofollow"><font size="3">here</font></a><font size="3">.</font></p><p><br /></p><p>I've been on a bit of a binge buying Norman coins of late. I will partially blame [USER=73473]@Magnus Maximus[/USER] for this, but I have always had an interest in the Normans (My doctorate was mostly a study of the Norman's in Europe, but also the Angevin kings of England). As I've been buying more Norman coins, I've been thinking about their adaptability and opportunistic nature which is illustrated in their coins. The Normans have their origins among the many Viking invaders of the 9th century, but were given territory in Northern France by the Carolingian King Charles the Simple. In this land, now called Normandy, these Norse-men would adopt the Christian religion and Frankish culture, but hold on to this sense of having a 'different' identity. Through both planned and opportunistic conquests, the Normans would establish kingdoms and principalities throughout Europe, with four main Coin producing areas: Normandy, England, Southern Italy & Sicily, and the Crusader States (primarily Antioch).</p><p><br /></p><p>[ATTACH=full]634100[/ATTACH]</p><p><font size="3">Not my coin - this is from CNG Auction 379, lot 497</font></p><p><b><font size="3">FRANCE, Provincial. <i>Normandie (duché)</i>. Richard I Sans Peur (the Fearless). </font></b><font size="3">943-996. AR Denier (21mm, 1.26 g, 2h). Rotomagus (Rouen) mint. Struck circa 980-985. + RICΛRDVS I (S sideways), short cross pattée, with pellet in each angle / ROTOMΛGVS (S sideways), temple façade with pellet in pediment; in center, short cross pattée in saltire, with pellet in each angle. Duplessy, <i>Féodales</i> 17; Legros 192; Dumas, <i>Fécamp</i><a href="https://www.cointalk.com/tel:773-2669" class="internalLink ProxyLink" data-proxy-href="https://www.cointalk.com/tel:773-2669">773-2669</a>; Poey d'Avant –. VF, some ghosting</font>.</p><p><br /></p><p>The first Norman coins naturally came from Normandy. These deniers were consistent with others minted throughout France in terms of size and weight, as Norman coinage appears at a time when royal control of the minting process was slipping away. In fact William Longsword, the first Norman whose name appears on coinage, may also have been the first count or duke to have officially gained minting rights from the king (others had usurped this right before). The pictured coin is from William's heir, Richard the Fearless. This type is the most common coin found today of those that were minted in Normandy.</p><p><br /></p><p>[ATTACH=full]634101[/ATTACH]</p><p><font size="3">French Feudal, Normandy</font></p><p><font size="3">Henry I, r. 1106-1135</font></p><p><font size="3">AR Denier, 19.53 mm x 0.9 grams</font></p><p><font size="3">Obv.: +NOR[M]MANIA. Short Cross with pellets in each quarter</font></p><p><font size="3">Rev.: Short cross with annulets and bars on either side, triangle above and below</font></p><p><font size="3">Ref.: Dumas XX-13, Roberts, 4837 reverse</font></p><p><br /></p><p>The Normandy coins degenerated in time. Whereas there was once a clear picture of a temple on the reverse, over the course of a few generations this would become a series of various geometric shapes. There was even a time when the legends degenerated into geometric designs, only to later be reestablished. The chaotic nature of the later Norman coins means it is often a mystery determining exactly who was duke when certain types were minted, and we are thus reliant on Archaeological finds and context.</p><p><br /></p><p>[ATTACH=full]634102[/ATTACH]</p><p><font size="3">England</font></p><p><font size="3">Henry I, r. 1100-1135 (1125-1135)</font></p><p><font size="3">Bury St. Edmunds AR Penny, 17.16 mm x 0.8 grams</font></p><p><font size="3">Obv.: +hEN[R]I[CVS]. Bust facing crowned and diademed, head three-quarters left, sceptre in right hand</font></p><p><font size="3">Rev.: [+]G[ILEBE]RT[:ON]:E[DM]N. Quadrilateral with incurved sides and lis at each angle over cross fleury</font></p><p><font size="3">Ref.: North 871, SCBC 1276, De Wit 3186</font></p><p><br /></p><p>When William the Bastard conquered England he refrained from importing Normandy's coinage system to England (it was by his reign as Duke that the coins of Normandy where becoming degenerated). William took over the English coinage and continued their weight, fineness, and style (likely as a part of his propaganda campaign to associate himself as the legitimate successor to Edward the Confessor). William would also continue the Anglo-Saxon practice of minting new types every six years or so. This practice would continue until the reign of his son and second heir, Henry I. As Henry would combat the issue of clipping in England, he would end the practice of recoinage with his fifteenth issue (pictured above), and would also attempt to introduce a round half-penny.</p><p><br /></p><p>[ATTACH=full]634103[/ATTACH]</p><p><font size="3">Norman Italy - Calabria</font></p><p><font size="3">Roger I, r. 1072-1101 (1098-1101)</font></p><p><font size="3">Mileto Mint AE Trifollaro, 28.04 mm x 8.3 grams</font></p><p><font size="3">Obv.: ROG [ERVS] COME +S. Roger, mounted left wearing Norman helm, holding kite shield and striped banner</font></p><p><font size="3">Rev.: + MARIA [MATE]R DNI (’N’ retrograde). Enthroned nimbate Virgin Mary holding on lap Christ child, nimbate and in swaddling clothes right</font></p><p><font size="3">Ref.: MEC 14.93, De Wit 3789</font></p><p><br /></p><p>The Norman invasion of Southern Italy would be much more complicated than the invasion of England. For the Norman's part, there was no single invasion under the direction of the duke, but rather a series of incursions by various knights and warriors. The family of the Hautevilles would be the most successful in establishing and consolidating their rule. The situation in Southern Italy would be much more varied and convoluted than the Dukes of Normandy invading England. The Lombards had been engaged in a series of battles with the Byzantine Empire which still held much of the peninsula. Byzantine coinage was quite common in the counties of Capua, Apulia, and Calabria, and the Normans would utilize the copper and gold denominations of the Byzantines. Even with these, there would be some tinkering. In Calabria, Roger I would modify the weight of the Follaro, with lighter issues, and a heavier issues which has often been called a Trifollaro. This issue also contains a rather unique design with Roger mounted on the obverse, and the virgin and child in the reverse. The mounted depiction is rather common on royal seals however.</p><p><br /></p><p>[ATTACH=full]634104[/ATTACH]</p><p><font size="3">Norman Italy - Sicily</font></p><p><font size="3">Roger II, r. 1130-1154 (1140-1154)</font></p><p><font size="3">Palermo mint, AV Taris, 12.66 mm x 1.1 grams</font></p><p><font size="3">Obv.: Outer Cufic legend denoting date and mint, inner Cufic legend al-malik Rujar al-mu’tazz bi-llah, pellet in center of dotted circle</font></p><p><font size="3">Rev.: Outer cufic legend denoting date and mint, in center, cross potent on shaft with pellet between IC XC NI KA</font></p><p><font size="3">Ref.: MEC 14.202, De Wit 3796</font></p><p><br /></p><p>As the Normans adjusted to Byzantine systems of coinage, they would also invade Sicily and adopt the Muslim monetary system. Western Europe, including the Normans' homeland, only used silver deniers or pennies. Gold had not been used in hundreds of years except for rare ceremonial occasions (for example, there is a gold coin bearing the Anglo-Saxon king Offa's name which otherwise is exactly the same as gold coins used in the Muslim world, including an inscription which praises Allah). The Normans would continue the practice of minting gold Taris with Cufic inscriptions, but would have themselves named as king, and begin introducing Christian iconography (such as the cross).</p><p><br /></p><p>[ATTACH=full]634105[/ATTACH]</p><p><font size="3">Norman Italy - Capua</font></p><p><font size="3">Anfusus, r. 1136-1144</font></p><p><font size="3">AE Follaro, (13.19 mm) x 0.69 grams</font></p><p><font size="3">Obv.: O/A/N in left field, standing figure holding sword</font></p><p><font size="3">Rev.: Pseudo-Cufic legend, cross above and below</font></p><p><font size="3">Ref.: MEC 14.188</font></p><p><font size="3">Note: Seller's photo with the reverse upside-down. Size is estimated based off the type. I am also cursing myself for posting this before it arrives...</font></p><p><br /></p><p>The Normans essentially had two native monetary systems in operation within the newly created kingdom of Sicily (which encompassed southern Italy). Additionally, the silver deniers of their native Normandy have been found in large hoards in Southern Italy, suggesting that they may have continued to circulate the coinage of their homeland. With different monies and cultural influences, the Normans began to blend them together, as evidenced by this copper follaro attributed to Roger II's son Anfusus. This was an issue from Capua: an area with no Muslim influence, yet it contains a pseudo-Cufic script on the reverse which was likely included to familiarize the people with the designs absorbed from the conquest of Sicily. It too contains Christian iconography with crosses above and below the "Cufic" script, and also continues the particular Norman military theme on the obverse (this obverse design would carry on into the Crusader State of Edessa).</p><p><br /></p><p>[ATTACH=full]634107[/ATTACH]</p><p>Norman Kingdom of Sicily</p><p>William II, r. 1166-1189 A.D.</p><p>Messina Mint, AE Follaro, 17.23mm x 1.7 grams</p><p>Obv.: + OPERATAT IN VRBE MESSANE outside, O / REX W / SCOVS in center (OV ligate)</p><p>Rev.: Arabic legend "al'malik / Ghulyalim / al-thani" (King William 2nd) in center, "bi-amr al-malik al-musta'izz" around edge</p><p>Ref.: De Witt 3811</p><p><br /></p><p>In time, the Normans would begin minting their own silver/billon coins which would circulate in addition to the copper and bronze they appropriated through their conquests. For a time they would contain both Latin and Arabic inscriptions (the Greek having already fallen out of favor), and eventually the Coins would solely be minted with Latin inscriptions. This Follaro of William II is the design type which would eventually become the more common silver/billon coin of Southern Italy.</p><p><br /></p><p>[ATTACH=full]634112[/ATTACH]</p><p><font size="3">Crusader - Antioch</font></p><p><font size="3">Tancred, Regent, r. 1101-1103, 1104-1112</font></p><p><font size="3">AE Type 2 Follis, 20.3 mm x 3.3 grams</font></p><p><font size="3">Obv.: Bust of Tancred facing, wearing turban, holding sword</font></p><p><font size="3">Rev.: Cross pommetée, fleuronnée at base; IC XC NI KA in quarters</font></p><p><font size="3">Ref.: De Wit 4076</font></p><p><font size="3">Hard earthen dark green patina, light cleaning scratches. Overstruck on a First type follis of Tancred (CCS 3b)</font></p><p><br /></p><p>While the Normans would adapt the native currencies of Southern Italy and eventually incorporate their own, they would also do the same in the Crusader States. The Normans, both in Normandy and Southern Italy, were instrumental in carrying out the First Crusade, and some of the Normans from Southern Italy would rule over the Principality of Antioch. Bohemond I was the Norman who ruled Antioch, but the principality was held in regency for most of his reign due to either captivity or absence. The regent was Tancred, whose grandfather was Robert Guiscard, brother of Roger I mentioned above. Tancred was a leading figure in the crusades, and was even named the prince of Galilee. As regent of Antioch, Tancred would issue coins in the Byzantine style which was customary for the region (as it was recently a part of the Byzantine Empire). Western influence could be seen with depictions of Saint Paul on the obverse of some issues (Paul being the founder of the bishopric of Rome was closely associated with the Pope - not necessarily an endearing figure to the Byzantines since the schism of the church of 1054). Perhaps more interesting is an issue of Tancred's where he is depicted with a long beard and wearing a turban. This was likely meant to show Tancred as blending in with the now native and Muslim population of Antioch, as is a further example of the Normans integrating into a culture which they invaded. This wearing of Eastern dress was something which had also been comented on by chroniclers, lamenting that Western Europeans were acting and behaving more like the heathens of the East.</p><p><br /></p><p>[ATTACH=full]634114[/ATTACH]</p><p><font size="3">Crusader Principality of Antioch</font></p><p><font size="3">Bohemond III, r. 1149-1201 (1149-1163)</font></p><p><font size="3">AR Denier, Class B, 16.53mm x 1 gram</font></p><p><font size="3">Obv.: +BOANVNDVS, bare head right</font></p><p><font size="3">Rev.: +ANTIOCHIA, cross in circle</font></p><p><font size="3">Ref.: De Witt 4085-7</font></p><p><br /></p><p>As the Normans integrated, so too did they change. Like in Southern Italy, a silver coinage similar to the deniers they knew from Western Europe would be introduced, and these would be used alongside other coins found in the region for the relatively short period that the Crusader States held on to the Levant.</p><p><br /></p><p>Anyway, I find this combination of adopting but also changing local custom to be a fascinating element of the Normans - not just in their coins, but in other areas too (such as the military - the main focus of my doctoral research). Feel free to share any Norman coinage (I'm sure there is some out there, even if these guys are a little hard to get ahold of).[/QUOTE]</p><p><br /></p>
[QUOTE="FitzNigel, post: 2759886, member: 74712"][SIZE=3][ATTACH=full]634121[/ATTACH] Norman lands are in pink. Original image was found [/SIZE][URL='https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-4m6JKUBqffI/T5Y9cShLtMI/AAAAAAAAAS8/22u2cgaQ354/s640/normans-map-1100.jpg'][SIZE=3]here[/SIZE][/URL][SIZE=3].[/SIZE] I've been on a bit of a binge buying Norman coins of late. I will partially blame [USER=73473]@Magnus Maximus[/USER] for this, but I have always had an interest in the Normans (My doctorate was mostly a study of the Norman's in Europe, but also the Angevin kings of England). As I've been buying more Norman coins, I've been thinking about their adaptability and opportunistic nature which is illustrated in their coins. The Normans have their origins among the many Viking invaders of the 9th century, but were given territory in Northern France by the Carolingian King Charles the Simple. In this land, now called Normandy, these Norse-men would adopt the Christian religion and Frankish culture, but hold on to this sense of having a 'different' identity. Through both planned and opportunistic conquests, the Normans would establish kingdoms and principalities throughout Europe, with four main Coin producing areas: Normandy, England, Southern Italy & Sicily, and the Crusader States (primarily Antioch). [ATTACH=full]634100[/ATTACH] [SIZE=3]Not my coin - this is from CNG Auction 379, lot 497[/SIZE] [B][SIZE=3]FRANCE, Provincial. [I]Normandie (duché)[/I]. Richard I Sans Peur (the Fearless). [/SIZE][/B][SIZE=3]943-996. AR Denier (21mm, 1.26 g, 2h). Rotomagus (Rouen) mint. Struck circa 980-985. + RICΛRDVS I (S sideways), short cross pattée, with pellet in each angle / ROTOMΛGVS (S sideways), temple façade with pellet in pediment; in center, short cross pattée in saltire, with pellet in each angle. Duplessy, [I]Féodales[/I] 17; Legros 192; Dumas, [I]Fécamp[/I][URL='https://www.cointalk.com/tel:773-2669']773-2669[/URL]; Poey d'Avant –. VF, some ghosting[/SIZE]. The first Norman coins naturally came from Normandy. These deniers were consistent with others minted throughout France in terms of size and weight, as Norman coinage appears at a time when royal control of the minting process was slipping away. In fact William Longsword, the first Norman whose name appears on coinage, may also have been the first count or duke to have officially gained minting rights from the king (others had usurped this right before). The pictured coin is from William's heir, Richard the Fearless. This type is the most common coin found today of those that were minted in Normandy. [ATTACH=full]634101[/ATTACH] [SIZE=3]French Feudal, Normandy Henry I, r. 1106-1135 AR Denier, 19.53 mm x 0.9 grams Obv.: +NOR[M]MANIA. Short Cross with pellets in each quarter Rev.: Short cross with annulets and bars on either side, triangle above and below Ref.: Dumas XX-13, Roberts, 4837 reverse[/SIZE] The Normandy coins degenerated in time. Whereas there was once a clear picture of a temple on the reverse, over the course of a few generations this would become a series of various geometric shapes. There was even a time when the legends degenerated into geometric designs, only to later be reestablished. The chaotic nature of the later Norman coins means it is often a mystery determining exactly who was duke when certain types were minted, and we are thus reliant on Archaeological finds and context. [ATTACH=full]634102[/ATTACH] [SIZE=3]England Henry I, r. 1100-1135 (1125-1135) Bury St. Edmunds AR Penny, 17.16 mm x 0.8 grams Obv.: +hEN[R]I[CVS]. Bust facing crowned and diademed, head three-quarters left, sceptre in right hand Rev.: [+]G[ILEBE]RT[:ON]:E[DM]N. Quadrilateral with incurved sides and lis at each angle over cross fleury Ref.: North 871, SCBC 1276, De Wit 3186[/SIZE] When William the Bastard conquered England he refrained from importing Normandy's coinage system to England (it was by his reign as Duke that the coins of Normandy where becoming degenerated). William took over the English coinage and continued their weight, fineness, and style (likely as a part of his propaganda campaign to associate himself as the legitimate successor to Edward the Confessor). William would also continue the Anglo-Saxon practice of minting new types every six years or so. This practice would continue until the reign of his son and second heir, Henry I. As Henry would combat the issue of clipping in England, he would end the practice of recoinage with his fifteenth issue (pictured above), and would also attempt to introduce a round half-penny. [ATTACH=full]634103[/ATTACH] [SIZE=3]Norman Italy - Calabria Roger I, r. 1072-1101 (1098-1101) Mileto Mint AE Trifollaro, 28.04 mm x 8.3 grams Obv.: ROG [ERVS] COME +S. Roger, mounted left wearing Norman helm, holding kite shield and striped banner Rev.: + MARIA [MATE]R DNI (’N’ retrograde). Enthroned nimbate Virgin Mary holding on lap Christ child, nimbate and in swaddling clothes right Ref.: MEC 14.93, De Wit 3789[/SIZE] The Norman invasion of Southern Italy would be much more complicated than the invasion of England. For the Norman's part, there was no single invasion under the direction of the duke, but rather a series of incursions by various knights and warriors. The family of the Hautevilles would be the most successful in establishing and consolidating their rule. The situation in Southern Italy would be much more varied and convoluted than the Dukes of Normandy invading England. The Lombards had been engaged in a series of battles with the Byzantine Empire which still held much of the peninsula. Byzantine coinage was quite common in the counties of Capua, Apulia, and Calabria, and the Normans would utilize the copper and gold denominations of the Byzantines. Even with these, there would be some tinkering. In Calabria, Roger I would modify the weight of the Follaro, with lighter issues, and a heavier issues which has often been called a Trifollaro. This issue also contains a rather unique design with Roger mounted on the obverse, and the virgin and child in the reverse. The mounted depiction is rather common on royal seals however. [ATTACH=full]634104[/ATTACH] [SIZE=3]Norman Italy - Sicily Roger II, r. 1130-1154 (1140-1154) Palermo mint, AV Taris, 12.66 mm x 1.1 grams Obv.: Outer Cufic legend denoting date and mint, inner Cufic legend al-malik Rujar al-mu’tazz bi-llah, pellet in center of dotted circle Rev.: Outer cufic legend denoting date and mint, in center, cross potent on shaft with pellet between IC XC NI KA Ref.: MEC 14.202, De Wit 3796[/SIZE] As the Normans adjusted to Byzantine systems of coinage, they would also invade Sicily and adopt the Muslim monetary system. Western Europe, including the Normans' homeland, only used silver deniers or pennies. Gold had not been used in hundreds of years except for rare ceremonial occasions (for example, there is a gold coin bearing the Anglo-Saxon king Offa's name which otherwise is exactly the same as gold coins used in the Muslim world, including an inscription which praises Allah). The Normans would continue the practice of minting gold Taris with Cufic inscriptions, but would have themselves named as king, and begin introducing Christian iconography (such as the cross). [ATTACH=full]634105[/ATTACH] [SIZE=3]Norman Italy - Capua Anfusus, r. 1136-1144 AE Follaro, (13.19 mm) x 0.69 grams Obv.: O/A/N in left field, standing figure holding sword Rev.: Pseudo-Cufic legend, cross above and below Ref.: MEC 14.188 Note: Seller's photo with the reverse upside-down. Size is estimated based off the type. I am also cursing myself for posting this before it arrives...[/SIZE] The Normans essentially had two native monetary systems in operation within the newly created kingdom of Sicily (which encompassed southern Italy). Additionally, the silver deniers of their native Normandy have been found in large hoards in Southern Italy, suggesting that they may have continued to circulate the coinage of their homeland. With different monies and cultural influences, the Normans began to blend them together, as evidenced by this copper follaro attributed to Roger II's son Anfusus. This was an issue from Capua: an area with no Muslim influence, yet it contains a pseudo-Cufic script on the reverse which was likely included to familiarize the people with the designs absorbed from the conquest of Sicily. It too contains Christian iconography with crosses above and below the "Cufic" script, and also continues the particular Norman military theme on the obverse (this obverse design would carry on into the Crusader State of Edessa). [ATTACH=full]634107[/ATTACH] Norman Kingdom of Sicily William II, r. 1166-1189 A.D. Messina Mint, AE Follaro, 17.23mm x 1.7 grams Obv.: + OPERATAT IN VRBE MESSANE outside, O / REX W / SCOVS in center (OV ligate) Rev.: Arabic legend "al'malik / Ghulyalim / al-thani" (King William 2nd) in center, "bi-amr al-malik al-musta'izz" around edge Ref.: De Witt 3811 In time, the Normans would begin minting their own silver/billon coins which would circulate in addition to the copper and bronze they appropriated through their conquests. For a time they would contain both Latin and Arabic inscriptions (the Greek having already fallen out of favor), and eventually the Coins would solely be minted with Latin inscriptions. This Follaro of William II is the design type which would eventually become the more common silver/billon coin of Southern Italy. [ATTACH=full]634112[/ATTACH] [SIZE=3]Crusader - Antioch Tancred, Regent, r. 1101-1103, 1104-1112 AE Type 2 Follis, 20.3 mm x 3.3 grams Obv.: Bust of Tancred facing, wearing turban, holding sword Rev.: Cross pommetée, fleuronnée at base; IC XC NI KA in quarters Ref.: De Wit 4076 Hard earthen dark green patina, light cleaning scratches. Overstruck on a First type follis of Tancred (CCS 3b)[/SIZE] While the Normans would adapt the native currencies of Southern Italy and eventually incorporate their own, they would also do the same in the Crusader States. The Normans, both in Normandy and Southern Italy, were instrumental in carrying out the First Crusade, and some of the Normans from Southern Italy would rule over the Principality of Antioch. Bohemond I was the Norman who ruled Antioch, but the principality was held in regency for most of his reign due to either captivity or absence. The regent was Tancred, whose grandfather was Robert Guiscard, brother of Roger I mentioned above. Tancred was a leading figure in the crusades, and was even named the prince of Galilee. As regent of Antioch, Tancred would issue coins in the Byzantine style which was customary for the region (as it was recently a part of the Byzantine Empire). Western influence could be seen with depictions of Saint Paul on the obverse of some issues (Paul being the founder of the bishopric of Rome was closely associated with the Pope - not necessarily an endearing figure to the Byzantines since the schism of the church of 1054). Perhaps more interesting is an issue of Tancred's where he is depicted with a long beard and wearing a turban. This was likely meant to show Tancred as blending in with the now native and Muslim population of Antioch, as is a further example of the Normans integrating into a culture which they invaded. This wearing of Eastern dress was something which had also been comented on by chroniclers, lamenting that Western Europeans were acting and behaving more like the heathens of the East. [ATTACH=full]634114[/ATTACH] [SIZE=3]Crusader Principality of Antioch Bohemond III, r. 1149-1201 (1149-1163) AR Denier, Class B, 16.53mm x 1 gram Obv.: +BOANVNDVS, bare head right Rev.: +ANTIOCHIA, cross in circle Ref.: De Witt 4085-7[/SIZE] As the Normans integrated, so too did they change. Like in Southern Italy, a silver coinage similar to the deniers they knew from Western Europe would be introduced, and these would be used alongside other coins found in the region for the relatively short period that the Crusader States held on to the Levant. Anyway, I find this combination of adopting but also changing local custom to be a fascinating element of the Normans - not just in their coins, but in other areas too (such as the military - the main focus of my doctoral research). Feel free to share any Norman coinage (I'm sure there is some out there, even if these guys are a little hard to get ahold of).[/QUOTE]
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