Matt's Counterfiet Gold Coin Thread

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Great Thread! The $2.50 and $5 incuse gold Indians are amoung my favorite coins, and I have always been interested in learning anything that I can find regarding the counterfeiting of these coins. I would probably own many more of these coins, but I have balked at buying numerous times over the years because of a small doubt regarding authenticity. Thanks again!!!

 

It looks good to me too. The only thing that seems a tad "off" is the shape of the obverse star at 11oclock compared to the rest of them. Is this a cause for concern, or is it common on these types to have slightly irregular stars?

 

Now here is a tricky one.... I have had this coin back as a "Melter" for a while in my safety deposit box. The details look like they have a chance... but what's with the marks on the obverse??? Planchet problems??... counterfiet?? Not all counterfeits are as easy as some of the ones posted earlier. This coin exhibits qualities of both real and counterfiet coins.

I personally think the coin is real... But I wouldn't be surprised if it came back a counterfiet. And looking at these pictures again... the throat area is looking really suspicious to me now.

 

Here is a coin with a story.

This coin was presented raw to me for sale with a large gold coin collection. This coin was the owners pride and joy of his collection. He had bought all of his gold coins in and middle 80's at local auctions. I immediately told him that the coin was not good and he was not happy. I offered to pay to have this piece graded and NGC agreed with me that the piece was bad. The indicators for me were the light pitting on the reverse especially between the buds at the top.

 

it definitely looks counterfeit to me. There is a raised blem above the portrait near the top of the obvers, there seems to be a fairly large depression too. Look in the depression for metal flow..

The reverse letters look fat. I'm not sure on the other one (the liberty) but I also noticed the stars look fat too, but this could just be from wear. The $3 looks much more suspicious to me IMHO

 

Gold,

I think it would help if you could define the terms you are using so that less experienced people can see what you are speaking about and learn what they are as well. Using terms like Blems might confuse people who aren't really familiar with counterfiet gold. Or if there is a good web link with definitions. I just want people to know what you are seeing so they learn what they are.



Matt

 

Blem is just a raised piece of metal, often found on casted pieces, but I've seen it on struck pieces too. I'm not sure exactly what causes it in struck coins.

Depression is just a mark on a counterfeit coin that often is filled with luster, blends in with the rest of the fields, and often has soft rounded edges. Alot of them look circular for some reason. When the counterfeiters made the counterfeit dies, they used a genuine 'host' coin to transfer the details on the struck pieces. These were contact marks on the genuine coin, transferred onto the die as raised lumps then struck they are shallow pits on the final coin. This is where the term 'repeating' depression comes from, all those coins struck with those same dies will have the same depression in the same place. So if you see 2 coins with the same depression in the same location, you can be sure they are fake. Sometimes this is the only way the best counterfeits get found out.

I'm also having doubts if that one actually is a depression, it looks like one and seems to have luster in it but its edges kind of sharp..it may just be a contact marks. I often get them confused...if you look for metal flow in the depression, that's a key sign it is fake, because metal flows through them when they are struck, unlike a contact mark on a genuine which is post-mint damage. Since the coins were struck, often times the depression is filled with luster. I've highlighted the areas of suspect on these photo's. Hope this helps.

 

Here is my last contribution for today. Pitted all over with lots of depressions. This is one of the easier ones.

 

The thing I find strange about those marks is if someone if beating on this thing... or whatever happened to it, how did they miss the letters "D" and "E" They are literally surrounded by these marks but show no massive damage themselves. This was my reasoning behind it possibly being something other then just out and out beating it to death.

 

Matt, was that a depression on the '58 $3 piece?
Or just a contact mark?

Didn't know blems could be from rusty dies ..interesting.

 

You are absolutely correct Doug and thanks for bringing that up.

In the case of the $5 the obvious pitting with the numerous depressions was enough for me. But you are absolutely correct that genuine coins can have depressions tho IMO they are rarely this numerous. The best thing you can see in thee picture is the soft transition from the edge of the depression to the field. It's very hard to show flow lines and luster inside of these depressions in pictures... I am however trying to figure out a good way. I ordered an extender tube for my camera today... that might just let me get really up close.

 

Under a loupe the edges appear to be sharp and well defined so I would tend to call it a contact mark.

 

Great thread, Matt, keep it up! The worn $3- with the obv. pecks-- I can't say confidently if it's fake or not. The lettering can look rather "fat" as it wears down and loses definition. That's a tough one.

 

Matt Kudos to you for this thread and helping educate us all...I have to say if I was in your shoes I do not think I could do as good as a job as spotting them as you do!

I hope to one day work in a coin shop like you!