Matte Proof vs Regular

Prospector · Mar 18, 2010

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Paddy54 · Mar 18, 2010

GDJMSP said: ↑

The reason for this is definitions. What constitutes a Proof in one person's mind does not necessarily constitutue a Proof in somebody else's mind.

But as a general rule, the accpted definition of a Proof is a coin that has been struck on specially prepared planchets by specially prepared dies. And usually struck more than once.

Using that definition - Proof-Likes don't cut the mustard.
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I agree 100% as a kid collector of the 60's this was the definition of a proof struck coin... at that time there was or were no Proof Like coins. To me the term Proof Like is just that a coin struck that has proof like surfaces but not proof.... IE a new pair of dies and first strike coins were the dies are sharp and produce a spotless coin. I was also told in those days that Proof coins were never touched by human hands after the coin was struck! Meaning bare skin where oils could transfer to the proof coin. I also recall that proof coins came in proof sets...meaning that in those days set were not broken up...yes some were but most were kept in the set as packed by the US Mint.

The Penny Lady® · Mar 18, 2010

Here are a couple other photos I borrowed from someone else that shows the difference in rims from a business struck Lincoln to a Matte Proof Lincoln. This is a 1910 MPL.

Prospector · Mar 18, 2010

Awesome

The Penny Lady said: ↑

Here are a couple other photos I borrowed from someone else that shows the difference in rims from a business struck Lincoln to a Matte Proof Lincoln. This is a 1910 MPL.

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I had a feeling the rim had something to do with it, I have found a few like that in the thousands of rolls I've searched the last few years since I started. When I find them I'll take pics, thanks a bunch again. Yes, thousands of rolls..lol.. Obsession?. heck no, good old fashion fun.

EyeEatWheaties · Feb 4, 2011

illini420 said: ↑

to add to the complication of telling matte proof vs. business strikes, i read that some of the matte proof coins that weren't up to quality standards were not sold as matte proofs but instead put into general circulation. also, i read that used matte proof dies were later used to strike business strike coins.
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Bumped for more info

The Penny Lady said: ↑

I have a quick little story. I was recently offered a raw 1909 MPL from a customer. After determining for myself that it was indeed an MPL, I bought it and showed it to an friend in Baltimore who is an authority on MPL's and asked what he thought it would grade. After examining it for a few minutes, he determined that, yes it was indeed an MPL, but it had completely different diagnostics than what he had previously seen on other 1909 MPLs. To shorten this story, this coin is currently being discussed, examined, and analyzed among several MPL authorities, including Kevin Flynn, who also has determined that it is a new die variety not previously known. He will be using this coin when he updates his current book for the next edition.

By the way, he thought it would grade PF64 RB, so after Kevin took a bunch of extremely close up photos for his book, I sent the coin to PCGS for grading.
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Update?

The Penny Lady said: ↑

I know which one (and who) you're talking about, and the experts have seen his 1909 and are aware it too may be one of the unknown varieties but they don't have close up photos of it - at least not yet.
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Update?

EyeEatWheaties · Feb 4, 2011

EyeEatWheaties said: ↑

Bumped for more info

Update?

Update?
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Just google it... do we have to everything for you?

EyeEatWheaties · Feb 4, 2011

EyeEatWheaties said: ↑

Just google it... do we have to everything for you?
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no I am sorry, I should have thought about that. Please forgive me... I found it - sorry to bother you.

1909 Matte Proof – New Coin Die Discovered

Brian Wagner and Kevin Flynn - April 12, 2010

A new 1909 Lincoln Matte Proof cent die has been discovered by Brian Wagner and Kevin Flynn. Brian Wagner recalls:

While previewing small cents at the Long Beach show in early February, I encountered a 1909 MPL Lincoln cent that got my attention. The coin was being offered for sale in the February 2010 Heritage Long Beach Signature Auction. It was an attractive, magenta-toned 1909 MPL cent graded PR66RB by PCGS.

As I brought the coin to my eye and began to view the coin's obverse with my 8X glass, I couldn't see any signs of die scratches running in front of and below the nose on this coin. I thought perhaps they were being hidden by the deep toning on the coin's surface. Next, I looked to see if I could find the die scratch that runs from the back of Lincoln's coat into the field and running up toward the right leg of the R of Liberty. Another "no show" for this die scratch.

(Editors Note: This new die might have been previously reported, but to this day, it was an unconfirmed die.)

In Kevin Flynn's Lincoln Cent Matte Proof book, there is only a single obverse die that is listed for both the 1909 VDB and 1909 MPL. The reverse of this coin also showed no diagnostics of the known reverse die for the 1909 MPL cent. Flynn lists a single reverse die in his book for the 1909 MPL.

In my five years of specializing in this series, I have encountered the two sets of die scratches mentioned above on every 1909 MPL cent obverse of the I have examined. This coin was the first 1909 MPL cent I have found that had the striking and surface characteristics of a Matte Proof, but didn't have the obverse diagnostics for the 1909 MPL cent.

One month later while walking by Charmy Harker's table at the Baltimore Coin show. Charmy called me over and said, "Brian! I have a 1909 MPL cent that was cracked out of a PCGS PR65RB holder and it doesn't seem to have any of the known diagnostics on the obverse of the coin." She handed me the coin and asked for my opinion.

I took the coin out of the flip and begin to examine it. The rims were polished and wide and were squared with sharp edges. The fields also ramped up quickly to the inner rim edge, again supporting it being a Matte Proof. Most of the letters and numbers were bold and squared, and the field surfaces were matted. The only thing that was unusual was the obverse details of Lincoln's head seemed a little weak compared to other 1909 MPL cents I have seen.

I handed the coin back to her and said, Charmy, I think your coin is a Matte Proof cent but it would sure be nice if Kevin Flynn was here and we could show him the coin to get his opinion. No more than 10 seconds went by, and up walks Kevin to Charmy's table not knowing the dilemma that was brewing concerning Charmy's 1909 "potential" MPL cent.

The three of us talked about the coin and agreed it would be a good idea for Kevin to take the coin, photograph it, study the diagnostics and render his opinion about the coin's proof status. After a careful study of the coin, Kevin Flynn made this statement about Charmy's 1909 MPL cent:

"I analyzed Charmy's coin and found it to be a new 1909 MPL cent die which is not listed in my Lincoln Cent Matte Proof book, or in Albrecht. It will be listed in the second edition of my book in a few years." Exciting news!

Below are the diagnostics recorded by Kevin:

Obverse:
Heavy die scratch from left bottom of N of IN to center of N.
Several vertical die scratches above IN GOD.
Several small die scratches between GO of GOD.
Several small die scratches in field below second T of TRUST.
Heavy die scratch from left bottom of T of LIBERTY through the R.
Reverse:
Die scratch from M of UNUM left into the field above E of ONE.
Horizontal die scratch in field to the right of the C of CENT.
Die scratch from the center of E to the N of CENT.
Die scratch through the middle of UN of UNITED.
Small over large TE of UNITED.
Die scratch through the lower TAT of STATES.
Die chip next to the rim at 3 o'clock.
Here is Kevin Flynn's theory about why this coin was made with a new set of dies that most likely created the final 180 1909 MPL cents minted on December 24, 1909:

The coin examined had obvious striking characteristics of a Lincoln cent matte proof. The rims were squared, the edges were sharp, and most of the letters were well-struck. The one striking characteristic that was unusual was that the details in the hair and head were not sharp. In my book, I ranked the 1909P as last in striking when compared to the other years, but the details in the head were less sharp than on the known 1909P matte proof.

A single obverse is known for the 1909 VDB matte proofs. This obverse was also used on the 1909P matte proofs. Up to now, it was the only obverse die known for the 1909 VDB and 1909P matte proofs. It is only logical to assume that they were used sequentially. If the obverse die was found to be to worn from being used in the coining press, then it would have been replaced, and not likely to be used for striking additional proofs. Given that the majority of the 1909P matte proofs were struck with this obverse die, it can be assumed that it was found to be good enough for proofs.

There were 1,194 1909 VDB matte proofs and 2,342 1909P matte proofs struck for a total of 3,536 Lincoln cent proofs struck in 1909. From the delivery dates, it can be seen that the numbers struck for each was normally fewer than 1,000 coins. It can be logically assumed that the same obverse and reverse working dies were used to strike all of the coins for that day unless the dies became cracked or damaged. For the 1909P, 852 were delivered on August 17, 810 on August 26, 500 on December 8, and 180 on December 24.

It can be logically assumed that the coins from August 17 and 26 were from the original obverse. Otherwise, this new obverse would be commonly found. The question is whether the coins from both December 8 and 24 were from the new 1909P obverse. It is my belief that if all of the 1909P Lincoln cent proofs were sold in the sets, that the new obverse and reverse were only used on the coins struck on December 24. Otherwise, we should have seen coins from these new dies compromising approximately 29 percent of the 1909P Lincoln cent proofs. Given that they have not been found to date in a heavily studied year, it is believed they were from the December 24 striking. If there were leftover Lincoln cent proofs that were not needed for the sets, it is likely that they were from both delivery dates.

The fact that we have 1,662 1909P Lincoln cent proofs struck in August and none in September through November supports the theory that the Mint believed it had struck enough cent proofs for the year and retired the cent proof dies. When additional proofs were required in December, new dies were selected for the obverse and reverse. The obvious problem would be that the working hub used to hub working dies had become worn from use, flattening the details and features of the design.

The new obverse and reverse dies hubbed in December were less detailed than those hubbed back in August when the working hub was newer. The working dies used for proofs were still sandblasted to create the matte surface, and a coining press was used that could exert great pressure, creating the broad rims, sharp edges and well-struck design elements. But as the design elements were not sharp from the working hub, the details were much less sharp.
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EyeEatWheaties · Feb 4, 2011

EyeEatWheaties said: ↑

no I am sorry, I should have thought about that. Please forgive me... I found it - sorry to bother you.
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thats ok, just don't let it happen again.

PennyLame07 · Apr 4, 2020

Not to sound coin lame, which I am, have matte proof nickels ever been issued? I ask this because I have two 1981-S proof sets, both pretty much identical. One big difference is the nickels. They are both Type 2, but one is a gorgeous cameo, the other has the same type of contrast except it has a flat appearance. I'd try to include pics, but I can't take photos to save my life. Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Terri

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