Matte Proof Lincoln question

So why would you bring the thread back to the top after two days if thats how you feel?
I posted my opinion only once in this thread. If that's a problem, I'm sorry.

 

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Let me get this straight....

MPLs, which are at an all-time high in terms of price and collector interest (some would argue because of a well-managed promotion) are UNDERAPPRECIATED by the TPGs and price guides?

Fascinating.

 

I didn't see the email alert until now, and I just clicked the link, like I usually do, and then thought I'd reply to the post. But, you have a point, Idhair. I should have checked the date, and saw this was going away. That was my bad. Ya got me, pal, ya got me.

 

Perhaps not half as fascinating as I find your ability to misunderstand what a person just said. Or is it you believe the TPGs and price guides accurately market-value MPLs?

 

I think the TPGs market grade these coins just fine.

As for the price guides, I think that PCGS's guides are accurate.

Perhaps not for the toners (that many of the inexperienced and well-off registry guys are all chasing after), but overall I think the price guides are accurate, and this series, if anything, will prove to be overappreciated (which is what spurned my comment).

But time will tell...Mike

 

I agree with this earlier parenthetical: "(some would argue because of a well-managed promotion)." At some point, I believe these [MPLs] may even be differentiated, as such, by the TPGs, and in the price guides, the latter having to acknowledge what appears to be the market trend toward premium-pricing on these. That may be somewhat down the road, though. OTOH, I understand you as taking the position the aforementioned "market trend" is, for the most part, dealer-hype...which, of course, may very-well be the case, as well.

 

As you know, I am a dealer and I sell MPL's. However, as a dealer, I have not and will not ever promote a coin just to promote so as to drive up prices. To me, that never even entered my mind. I "promote" or sell, if you will, MPL's because as I have said here before, I personally think they are an amazing coin, previously under-appreciated, such low mintage, unique in their matte-ness, so minutely detailed, and come in the most beautiful original toning (IMHO and experience, most are not "messed with" as previously mentioned by another member here).

So, as one who has almost a dozen of these beauties, I think I am in a position to judge the market for MPL's, at least to some exetent. And sure, the market for these has slowed over the past few months, as has everything else due to the summer months, and of course the economy, but believe me, as far as I am concerned, my opinions, thoughts, and discussions on this and any other forum about MPL's are from my experience, knoweldge, research, and information gathering from all kinds of sources - and are sincerely from the heart - not "dealer hype."

 

Doug, perhaps occasionally, just like in any other sales business, but I don't think it's prevalent. It's probable that some dealers engage in coin hype just to push up prices of a particular series, but because I'm not in the circle with all the "big boys" who would most likely be the ones in the best position to be pushing certain series of coins just to increase prices, I can't say I've actually seen it or known it to happen. My experience, and perhaps naively, is that the dealers I hang around with (including a couple well known dealers) actually LOVE coins and are buying and selling coins because we not only are trying to make a living, but we really enjoy it.

Most dealers I know are just trying to sell coins for the best price we can get, of course, and that's the bottom line in this and any sales business. I think it would take too much effort, too much time spent "pounding the pavement," and it would take too many "gullible" buyers for a hyping of coins to work well or work too often. I'm not saying it doesn't happen, because in any business there are "sharks," but I'm just saying that I personally don't see it. And besides, most people who are looking to buy higher end coins (to whom I'm assuming hyping of coins would be targeted) are pretty savvy and know their particular coin series well enough not to be taken in by hype. In my experience, people well off enough to be able to afford higher end coins didn't get that way by being taken in easily or taken advantage of by unscrupulous dealers.

Regarding MPL's, there are probably only a handful of dealers who really sell quantities of these rare beauties, me included, along with Brian Wagner, Angel Dees, and a few others. I personally do not see any of them hyping MPL's just to push up prices. As far as I see, they are simply trying to sell them for the best price they can get. And I can tell you it is a lot tougher to sell higher end coins in this current market.

Brian probably sells the most MPL's of anyone I know - he knows this series inside and out, and he knows their rarity, especially in high grades, and he seems to find and sell the most. On top of that, most of the MPL's he sells has a ton of eye appeal with gorgeous toning, but he also sells a lot of red MPL's which are even harder to find. I have bought several nice MPL's from him, so of course, my prices are going to be higher than what I bought them from him. So if anyone were to be able to push up sales just to increase prices, it would be him, but Brian is a nice guy and I don't think he's the kind of person or dealer to do this, but if he were, he would have to be selling these MPL's for a lot more than he is.

 

Should the TPGs and price guides acknowledge and set aside this designation for special premium pricing? You know, just like CAMs and DCAMs? Full Bell Lines and Full Steps, when it comes to strike-designations? That's the issue, I submit. Not whether or not a monster-toned MPL should command monster pricing. That could be said about any monster-toned coin. It's the designation we're talking about, here, not the eye-appeal. As I see it, anyway...

 

I humbly disagree with you - we ARE talking about eye appeal here - that is exactly one of the most important things that drives prices up on any coin - whether it be color, luster, strike, etc.! Not quite sure what you mean about designation - like adding "Rainbow Toned" on the holder? IMHO it doesn't really matter to me what the holder says as far as an added description like Rainbow Toned, Highly Lustrous, Blue or Silver Toned, or whatever - I can see that for myself when I look at a coin (including if I was a nickel, dime, dollar person - I would certainly make sure that coin had full bell lines, full steps, etc. before I bought that coin).

Also, I don't think giving a coin such a designation on the holder will necessarily increase it's value - toning is definitely "in the eye of the beholder." As you can see from our discussions here, there are people (and I personally just don't understand this ) who don't like toning or certain colors on a coin. But I'm sure the same doesn't hold true with cameo, full bell lines or full steps - everyone looking for those coins will want to see these attributes on a holder as they denote a better strike, better quality coin.

 

I think that this is a mentality that pervades our hobby; the desire to be able to buy coins sight unseen. IIRC, it was one of the basic principles that was espoused as to why we needed grading services to begin with. Years later we have found that there really isn't any way to fully describe a particular coin and all of the superlatives in the world will not be able to capture what is seen with the eye in mere seconds.

 

Well, if I might, I thought you were suggesting a premium designation by the TPGs and in the price guides for MPLs. I thought that's what you were driving at when you drew our attention to the fact that these mintages were relatively low...a public acceptance, if you will, that they should be premium priced, for that reason...which, I believe, doesn't necessarily follow from just the fact of their relatively low mintages. Witness the relatively low mintage proofs that command less than their corresponding business strikes. For business strikes compared against business strikes, witness the prices of the Jefferson Nickels, for one, which also don't correlate with their respective mintages. In short (and, I apologize if I mistook you), I thought you were hanging your hat on the relatively low mintages to justify a premium designation by the TPGs and in the price guides that we'd all, thereafter, be obliged to accept, of course. But, that's it. The remaining 99.99% of what you said on MPLs, I have no issue with. In fact, I think the percentage may be even higher than that.

 

And this today is what they call progress. dd:

 

I'm not sure where you got the idea that or impression. I don't recall my saying or meaning that at all. I am on my Blacberry right now and can't explain right now but I will try to address and explain better in a couple days.

 

Take your time. In the meantime, I'm at an advantage with a keyboard in front of me, so I'll tell you why it adds up that way. You have identifiable factors, such as the matte finish, and, OK, the "unique" surface reflectivity. Also, from an objective standpoint, you have the relatively low mintages. I thought you're asking premium pricing on these for those reasons. Oh, but they look so pretty for the way the "unique" surfaces tone--doesn't anybody else see that? Sure we do. But, proof surfaces and regular business strike surfaces of the same series and grade tone "unique" to those surfaces, too...so, where does that aspect get you, asking a premium? It gets you nowhere. MPLs tone differently. That's all there is to it. One could just as well argue those proofs and regular business strikes your buyers forgo to purchase the MPLs toned differently, as well. Thus, that's a wash, and hardly a ground for a premium on MPLs. OTOH, if the public accepted premiums on MPLs, across the grading spectrum, that, indeed, would be different. If the TPGs and price guides recognized those premiums, now they'd be "official," and the public would have to play along. Simply put, that would raise the bar on the starting point for negotiations on these. Do you see?

OTOH, you're just enamored with these things and believe as such they rightfully should command premiums, forgive my abruptness, but they're your coins! End of discussion.

 

It's not the end of the discussion, Eddie! I'm talking about MPL's in general, not just mine. And yes some MPLs have very pretty toning, and yes they have a very low mintage, and yes they have the unique matte finish - therefore, all of these attributes absolutely DO mean MPLs (and other series) should get premium prices. I can't tell you how many times I've already stated this opinion. However, not all MPLs are created equally - those that are splotchy, speckled, dull, etc. do not get higher premiums
(that should be pretty obvious).

I've read over your comments a couple times, just to try and understand what you're argument is. And I don't understand why you are comparing MPLs to business strikes - they were struck differently, with a huge mintage difference. To me, and I mean no disrespect, but all your comments above sound like you are arguing just for argument sake - they don't make much sense to me - and you're trying to compare apples to oranges. I feel like I'm beating a dead horse, going over the same thing I've already stated:

EYE APPEAL (TONING, COLOR, LUSTER, ETC.) = PREMIUM

That is the bottom line, no matter what the coin, but especially in any proof series. Ok, now END OF DISCUSSION!

 

With all due respect, it is precisely these issues which have traditionally kept MPLs down in value.

 

since the discussion is officially over, i guess this post won't matter much, but like any coin it's just simple supply and demand at work.

There is a really low supply of very nice MPLs out there and the demand for them is high. So, the prices of those coins are also high. On the other hand, there's a bunch of ugly and/or lower grade MPLs out there and not many people want those, so of course the prices are much lower (and these are the prices that I see in many of the price guides).

Now that your discussions are over, how about some more MPLs?????

I've posted this one before:



But here's my amateur photo attempts of the coin:



I think that my coin above is an example of one of the good MPLs and I paid a significant premium for it.

On the other hand, here's an example that I used to own, a 1909 in a PCGS PR63RB OGH holder, that I would consider an average MPL and I paid an average price for it:



Here's another I used to own that sort of falls in between but is probably closer to the average end of the scale and I accordingly paid an average price. 1914 PCGS PR63RB OGH:

 

I agree and will add that it has been that way for over 30 years. Probably longer but thats when I started buying them. If it was nice the price was strong.

There is something that no one has brought up about these.
Over the past several years the quality of images has became so good.
Some folks that see these images start thinking they must have one.
I feel this is one factor that has drove the prices to where they are now.