Matte Proof Lincoln question

never mind, I am no MPL expert by any means

 

Log in or Sign up to hide this ad.

I wish every member here could have the priveledge that I have had, that is walking a show and conversing and observing with GD. The free dinner was a bonus

But we disagree on this one. Im on the Charmy side here and I wont change my mind.

 

I think Doug makes some great, well thought out points, but I think the way you write Doug could be a little less emphatic. Some of the statements are conversation stoppers. People need to be able to voice their opinions are not be cut off. Saying stuff like "this is the way it is, or there is no other way"- all or nothing statements make it hard to disagree if someone is not real confident in themselves. I tend to be the same way so it's easy for me to identify. No offense Doug just MHO's.

Now back to the topic. Bought this coin and from Charmy. Numismedia value for a 1902 MS 64 RB is $113 currently. Paid $185 if I recall right. Was it worth that price to me? Absolutely. What could I get for it right now? I don't know, but I think pretty close either direction.

 

That never stopped me.

There's a difference between arguing and respectfully disagreeing. Do the former, and you'll get in trouble. Do the latter and you can have a very productive discussion of the issues.

 

Very true. This forum is about learning from each other after all.

 

I think that you also realize what we are saying and that at times we also make examples of the ridiculous to prove the mere possibility of a point. Sometimes I have made a point by using the extreme just to point out that it happens, not that it's the rule. I think that at times you do take the extreme examples that we use and try to reinforce to us that it's not the rule, when clearly we understand that fact.

I personally love the debate with Doug, he's someone who won't just give in to a point, he will try to get you to understand that point, no matter how dense you can be. I think that at times what comes off as "this is it and that's the way it is" is just Doug's way of trying to get us to understand his point of view when it seems unclear that we are grasping it, not telling us that he's right and we're wrong.

Personally, Doug, I at times think that your admin tag is a bit intimidating to users. I sometimes wish that when posting knowledge or strong opinions that you would use a "neutral" account thereby making it not seem like we are arguing with the administration of the site. Your opinions can be strong (as can a lot of ours) but the admin tag on your id does make it seem like Peter and the whole of the people who run the site are who we are debating with rather than just a member.

It wasn't quite as pronounced until the colored bars underneath the user ids, but has since become something a bit more "intimidating" to newer users who don't know you as well as some of us.

 

you could always create a second "neutral" account to post from, using the admin tag only for admin stuff.

Even if that violates forum rules, there could be an exception made for administrators for exactly this purpose. I mean, you guys do make the rules here, it's not a democracy. The administation here can do whatever they want.

 

Doug, just because you find it "utterly rediculous" doesn't mean it is in fact ridiculous - maybe it is ridiculous to YOU because you don't know or feel what that buyer knew or felt when he purchased that coin. You start off above saying that we all "have at one time or another, and usually several times, over-paid for a coin" - I don't think I've "over-paid" for a coin that I really wanted or really made me happy, that fit perfectly into my collection, was very special, etc. (for example, that 1880 off-center die clash I posted yesterday on another thread, I paid quite a bit for that coin and would have paid even more for it because it had all the bells and whistles I look for in a coin for my personal collection - and I'll bet you would say I "over paid" for it because perhaps it wasn't that appealing to you - but whose to say I "over paid" for it - certainly not me because it was well worth it to me - and, from the feedback I've gotten here and on the CU forum, I'll bet some of them would have paid even more for it).

But let's go back to your example with the 1954 XF Lincoln, there might have been something unique, special, an error or variety, that the buyer saw in that coin that made it worth it to him/her, and perhaps others, something you didn't see. Why is that ridiculous? Respectfully, who are you to judge that this person's purchase was ridiculous? Most likely, he/she wouldn't have paid that much money for an otherwise pretty worthless coin if he/she didn't see something in that coin that was WORTH IT to HIM/HER, and perhaps to others. Again, respectfully, that is the point I am/we are trying to make that you don't seem to grasp.

And regarding your being the admin and posting your opinions here, I agree with the others - even though, as you can tell, I feel pretty comfortable posting my opinions, and can sound opinionated in doing so, I try to temper how I say what I say so as not to offend or sound like I am dictating the "word of God." I too enjoy debating with a challenging debator such as you, and don't want that to change, but I do think your posts can and have intimidated others into refraining from posting their opinions and thoughts because, the true fact is you ARE the admin here, and you do have those special admin powers to poof threads - whether you actually would or not is not the point. And even if you remove your title, posters know that you are the admin guy, so it would be helpful if you could at least debate and be opinionated in a more thoughtful way so that you don't sound quite so (and I say this with a smile and mean it in an over-exaggerated way) "Bible thumping."

It's kind of like having social drinks with the boss - even though you are seeing him/her outside of work on a purely social basis, you still know he/she is the BOSS and will act differently (hold back) than you would if he/she was simply a peer.

 

it is not a suggestion to hide who you are, that's not at all what i am suggesting! What I am suggesting is a seperate account where you can be as opinionated as you like without being intimidating as the "admin".

Use the admin account when you remove posts etc.

I, as I am sure I have stated before, was a community manager at oxygen media (that's right, Oprah's company) and what we did was had a public screen name and a moderator screen name. we only used the mod I.D. for mod stuff and were free to be members of the community on "equal footing" with everyone else.

I didn't suggest for a moment that you'd go underground or clandestine, Doug. Merely that at times, you remove the "badge" so as to seem equal with everyone else.

 

Setting aside all the moderator talk...

I think, essentially, that what GDJMSP is saying is that a coin is worth what the market in general will pay for it.

Whereas, Charmy, myself, and others, seem to be suggesting a coin is worth what a single individual will pay for it.

And in a sense, we're all right. What GDJMSP is getting at is the market value of a coin, and what we are getting at is the price an individual is willing to pay for a coin. One is a generality, another a specific example -- and both are important to understand.

 

Wow- this is fun stuff. Real debate! I see both sides of these arguements. If someone pays $495 for a 1954 P XF lincoln, than they have absolutley lost their mind IMHO. Sorry Charmy, I am with Doug all the way on that one. They will NEVER EVER sell it for even the slighest fraction of that. So it may make that person happy and the seller "rich" on that particluar transaction, the person still has no intelligence in the purchase. We have all overpaid for coins at one point or another. That's why you have to ask yourself why you collect? To invest and make money on the sale or to invest in the best coins you can afford.

As for Doug, I agree with taking off the administrator tag when posting as a regular Joe. I think giving people a little grace goes a long way. I have to say to Doug, I partly went on my debacle of my 1909 S VDB when I posted it on "Post some Lincolns" and you said it was hairlined everywhere. At that point I tried to fix it which I should never have done. I even showed it to a dealer before I tried to fix it (with Dellars) and he said it would grade at PCGS no problem (a high end well known dealer who regularly advertises in the mags and whom PCGS personally told me to preview my submissions first with). I let that criticism bug me and tried to fix it. I accept full responsiblity for my actions. No blame at all whatsover. However, I was influenced by the "all or nothing" approach from an authority figure when I lacked the knowledge I have now, and essentially messed up a key date coin. That's where being a little less harsh will help us. We are who we are, but grace is an important concept. Coin people can get snobby, emphatic, and very opinionated. This is not always good. Just MHO's. All said I have learned a lot from Doug, and mostly appreciate him.

 

No comment on my point Doug? Am I being ignored?

 

some people don't get it ... and probably never will

I am not the one that's being intimidated, but others are. If you can't see the forest thru the trees, then that's your shortcoming.

I disagree that it's the single most important reason, because many here have been fair, equal and just, they just didn't get asked by Peter. Many qualified people have volunteered. In the end, cops are cops, and cops are necessary, but cops are people too, and sometimes in order for the general public to see them as people and not authority figures, people need to see them out of uniform.

I think that at times people can be overbearing, and the image that they present gives them credibility and authority. Doug, people would respect you and listen just as much if you were a "regular poster" like the rest of us, but your inability to see this from the user's point of view lends a perceived air of aristocracy to the staff here, and affects the users, whether you believe it or not.

that's all I am going to say on it... I have already let it consume too much of my time.

 

Doug, I again agree with Mike on this. It is a fact that others feel intimated by you, and your authoritative writing style. You guys are running a public site here and I would think you would want to LISTEN to your public, but, as you put it, "what you seem to miss" is that you can say everyone is equal here all you want, but the fact is you are one of the "bosses" and it shouldn't be everyone else's problem when they say they can't post the same opinions and thoughts that go up against you.

And not that you need to respond to every comment here, and this is no biggie, but I too am feeling a bit neglected in that you seem to have ignored my posts.

 

Johnny, I've been around here for twice as long as you have, give or take, and I don't think I've posted one single coin from my entire collection that Doug likes. Hell, Doug, a guy could get a complex!

That said, you seem to understand, like I do, you want those kinds of [may I call them, "challenging?"] opinions, from whatever the source, as that's the only way one learns. Just don't flame anybody. That's all there is to it, really.

OK, OK, let me qualify that with, "IMHO" (...there, y'all happy now! )

 

I agree with Mike though I would have phrased it a little different. There is a post here (Coin Talk under attack) where the CU people were commenting against this site and people were referrencing this whole topic we are debating- not in a good way. They were turned off by this site because of the perception of mods being too controlling and killing debate. True or not it was an interesting perception being touched on.I think Doug, you should have two profiles. This is not hypocritical at all in my opinion. I am a manager and have all sorts of privledges my employees don't have. That is perfectly fair and appropriate. I have privledge info and rank above them. A mod here has authority and power and privledged info. People are asking you to get a second profile for the sake of perceptions. That would be a humble position without the big RED bar under your name (red isn't the most friendly color) and no posts to your name. Please hear the people. Start a new post yourself and take a vote. Isn't that the most democratic thing?