Market grading...

Discussion in 'Coin Chat' started by eddiespin, Aug 8, 2022.

  1. eddiespin

    eddiespin Fast Eddie

    Just a thought on this. Market grading was invented by ANA. Not so with grading. ANA standards on grading weren't invented. They were rather very carefully observed and categorized benchmarks on levels of wear, or grade. ANA grading standards were aligned on how coins wear. ANA didn't invent how coins wear, or invent grading. But it did invent market grading, which is superficial nonsense. We like the look, it market grades higher. We're impressed with the provenance, it market grades higher. Both those, eye appeal and provenance, are market grading standards. As such, we have a pig, add lipstick, it's not a pig. Market grading tells us whether we got something people want, grading tells us whether it's a pig. All to say, learn to grade, or we don't know whether it's a pig.
     
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  3. Insider

    Insider Talent on loan from...

    eddiespin, posted: "Just a thought on this. Market grading was invented by ANA. Not so with grading. ANA standards on grading weren't invented. They were rather very carefully observed and categorized benchmarks on levels of wear, or grade. ANA grading standards were aligned on how coins wear. ANA didn't invent how coins wear, or invent grading. But it did invent market grading, which is superficial nonsense. We like the look, it market grades higher. We're impressed with the provenance, it market grades higher. Both those, eye appeal and provenance, are market grading standards. As such, we have a pig, add lipstick, it's not a pig. Market grading tells us whether we got something people want, grading tells us whether it's a pig. All to say, learn to grade, or we don't know whether it's a pig."

    Nonsense!


    A good explanation of some of the things affecting market grading.
     
  4. charley

    charley Well-Known Member

    I see. Eye appeal started with market grading. Good to know.
     
  5. eddiespin

    eddiespin Fast Eddie

    You got that right, Sherlock, very good. You must have noticed in your old Red Book there's no reference to eye appeal influencing the technical grade. I'll bet a lot of us never even noticed that...
     
  6. eddiespin

    eddiespin Fast Eddie

    Well sure it was invented. Nobody graded that way, based on market factors. They asked more money. But that didn't change the grade, it changed the price. Market grading was ANA's half-assed attempt at synthesizing the grade with the price so the TPGs would have an easy go and not be inconvenienced with having to make the calls on the real grades. They've got room now to botch up, courtesy of the ANA. Tell them the coin isn't as pretty as they say, go ahead. Hard to hold them when it's half-assed standards like that. Tell them the provenance doesn't reflect the high status they just bumped-up the grade for. Tell them the cheek and jaw doesn't have separation, there you can hold a grader. But not these market graders.
     
  7. GDJMSP

    GDJMSP Numismatist Moderator

    Afraid we shall have to agree to disagree that it's nonsense Mike. The ANA did invent, create, originate, (choose your own word), market grading.

    Of course I will grant you that what people "think" market grading is in today's world, or put another way, define what market grading is in today's world - is definitely NOT what market grading was when the ANA invented it. When they (ANA) invented it market grading was nothing more than a entirely new grading system using a new set of grading criteria.
     
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  8. eddiespin

    eddiespin Fast Eddie

    The TPGs do grade a little differently, Doug. You taught me that one quite a while ago.
     
  9. Collecting Nut

    Collecting Nut Borderline Hoarder

    Make horse sense to me.
     
  10. charley

    charley Well-Known Member

    That eye appeal started with market grading, or that ANA invented market grading, or that eye appeal was invented by ANA or eye appeal was invented by market grading?
     
  11. charley

    charley Well-Known Member

    Silly.
     
  12. Collecting Nut

    Collecting Nut Borderline Hoarder

    Exactly what the horse said.
     
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  13. Insider

    Insider Talent on loan from...

    I'm surprised at any "old-timers" who don't remember how things were in the 1970's. When the ANA finally got around to publishing a book about "Grading Standards" in 1978 (First Edition 1977) grading was based on: "Our goal was to standardize grading by defining significant DEGREES OF WEAR and establishing guidelines so that the various grades may be easily identified."

    Note that it was not until many years later that the COMMERCIAL GRADING done by coin dealers and the "new" TPGS (PCGS) was incorporated into the ANA's Grading Guide! ;)

    PS I was there. So my original post stands: The ANA invented NOTHING!
     
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  14. Mountain Man

    Mountain Man Supporter! Supporter

    I still like, good, better, best. LOL
     
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  15. ddddd

    ddddd Member

    I’m with @Insider the coin dealers and TPGs made market grading; the ANA just followed along.
     
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  16. charley

    charley Well-Known Member

    That helped clarify. Thanks.
    For a moment there, I was wondering if I read gobbdygobbledness.
    truth in editing: added a "." after Thanks.
     
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  17. Insider

    Insider Talent on loan from...

    Doug, I'll remind you that the ANA "claimed" to use "Technical" grading when they moved to Colo and started grading coins for a fee after the ANA's Grading Guide was published. Of course they did not use "true" Technical Grading. They had no idea what it was. True (as devised to identify a coin - not value it) Technical Grading was only practiced at the ANA in DC for internal records and then carried over to the first TPGS at the INS Authentication Bureau also in DC.
     
  18. GDJMSP

    GDJMSP Numismatist Moderator

    It seems we remember things a bit differently about the advent of market grading.

    The ANA meetings and discussions about the new grading system began in 1984-85. David Hall, and a few others who were later part of PCGS, were at those meetings and participated, and contributed to developing the new market grading system. The ANA's new grading book, the 5th edition was actually written before PCGS was founded in 1986. But because publishing takes a bit of time the copyright date for the book is 1987. But it was all decided and written before PCGS ever existed.

    And if you'll also think back Mike you recall that the 1st year PCGS was open, 1986, they actually tried to follow, for the most part anyway, the grading standards established by the ANA's new market grading system. But, and it's a big but, by 1987 David Hall had decided that the ANA's grading standards in that book were too strict for him and so he loosened the grading standards for PCGS. There are video's, and several articles, where David Hall himself talks about this.

    So yes, the ANA did invent market grading. And yes, David Hall, and numerous other dealers and well known names in numismatics helped develop that grading system. The ANA did not copy what PCGS (and in 1987 NGC) did - it was the other way around. The TPGs copied the ANA, only the TPGs loosened their standards so they could make their customers happy.
     
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  19. -jeffB

    -jeffB Greshams LEO Supporter

    Does a coin automatically make "best" if it's "shinny"? Seems like that qualifier's used a lot, especially on eBay...
     
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  20. charley

    charley Well-Known Member

    That is not at all what I recall. I was there.
    Insider is in this situation, is recalling a bit more accurately.
    One of the strong influences at the time was Julian. Question- did Julian "invent" market grading?
    Discounting the influence of Julian, is equal to saying Herman and David Most on the only dealt in green stamps from the 60s to now. D.C in the 60s and 70s (and more accurately Bethesda and Silver Spring) was a magical place for coins and stamp hobbyists.

    Nothing was ever too strict for Mr. Hall, in regard to ANA. That is a bit of gobbledygobeldness.
     
  21. charley

    charley Well-Known Member

    Only the hair on the shinny shin shin.
     
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