Featured Market Grading vs. Technical Grading

Not necessarily, Doug. People follow the loudest voice, very often, as I don't think that you're any David Hall. However, I find this debate somewhat tiresome, as it isn't really about coins, but more about how one thinks that third parties deal with said coins. Have it your way, Doug. Don't feel like fighting--I agree to disagree with you over the accuracy and importance of TPGs.

 

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I don't feel the TPGs should get any deeper into the condition of a coin, other than the amount of wear it has and if its authentic or not. Who are they to determine eye appeal and set a standard on what is attractive and what is not? The Mona Lisa is one of the ugliest paintings I've ever seen and can not figure out for the life of me why its so famous. But the piece is priceless and its not because of one person's opinion. And if I was looked upon to determine its value, it wouldn't receive much. Look at my avatar. Some feel that cream colored blotch in the field in front of the portrait is a distraction mark, where I feel it gives the coin character. And other's look at a fire engine red 09s VDB and praise the dipped coin, knowingly or not. To each is own when it comes to liking a coin or not.

 

And now the TPGs are not enough for a lot of people. If it the coin doesn't have a bean, they skip right over it.....

Im starting a company that will determine if the CAC's is determining if the TPGs are determining coins correctly. Who has the bread to help me get this off the ground? The double bean will be the new standard.

 

My issue with market grading is anyone selling toned coins is not going to ask for market grade prices but technical plus toning premium.

 

I'm sorry Mike, but that post is pure garbage. TPGs were created remove the bias of dealers grading their own coins. If as a result of third party grading, some collectors/investors have decided not to learn about coin grading, that is not the fault or intention of the TPGs.

Furthermore, you think that the hobby of coin collecting would be better served by less collectors, less money, and lower prices because it will spur young people to become coin collectors. I think that is insane. Children often find coin collecting an enjoyable hobby. By the time they become teenagers, 99% of those child collectors start spending all of their money on girls, cars, girls, college, girls, partying, girls, and did I mention GIRLS. Often, when those collectors reach their middle age years and are married with children, many rediscover the hobby. That dynamic of collecting has existed long before the inception of the TPGs.

IMO, being exclusionary to the uninformed is the perfect recipe to kill the hobby, not save it.

 

My point is the adjustment when a pq or toned coin sells is frequently disregarded in concept i.e. The seller wants the value of the grade as if it were technical graded plus the value of the toning. Example given- a nicely toned Morgan. it seems like when it is a market ms65 that the asking price is adjusted up from ms65, as though the base price is a ms65 and then a premium added for toning. not priced at ms 65 for net grade.

 

Wow, what a read, I'll stay out of it.

@-jeffB I'm glad this topic isn't getting sidetracked into another drawn-out discussion about GDJMSP's resume. Keep up the good fight.

 

You won't see me defending Hagar, but that was not the intention of the TPGs that currently control the market, NGC & PCGS. And yes, both NGC & PCGS adjusted their grading standards in the early years but I seriously doubt your stated reason.

I would be interested in how market grading helps the helpless, but often confuses those adept at technical grading. Can you explain this further, with examples maybe?

Whether intentionally ignorant or knowledgeable numismatists, the best coins will always wind up in the hands with those with money. Furthermore, I think you are severely overestimating the number of "intentionally ignorant" who are supposedly making coins unaffordable to the masses. Usually, I agree with your posts, but in this instance, I must vehemently disagree as this sounds more like a conspiracy theory.

 

I'll toss this one in for the sake of the thread. I'd call it an "oops" grade, I think. Gotta love the accessibility of two different sets of images...

http://www.ngccoin.com/certlookup/index.aspx?CertNumber=2792982-047

 

The problem with market grading is that dealers want to price their coins based on the bumped up market grade and still charge a premium for eye appeal. Collectors then end up paying two premiums rather than one.

 

A problem like this comes to mind when grading the British florins of Edward Vll which were minted between 1902 to 1910. Some dealers will grade the coins at VF or better but because the digits of the date are high, they allow the one or the nine to be worn or only just discernable.

 

How loose can a TPG grading standard become, as it is scrutinized and accessible worldwide with photograde and photo references in the thousands, for comparable grades?

How can you verify, that the standard before TPGs was strict, when they didn't even have cell phones back then? What proof and references can you possibly provide in equal quantity, for comparison, regarding how loose word grading was?

 

Yes, but, if you start out collecting coins in top 4 TPG slabs, most are accurate and you are in a much better position, through their experience, to spot the slabbed problem coin or mistake. What reference of any significant quality can you have, that will help you spot the problem coin, when buying raw or old word grading?

 

In my experience with toned coins that actually achieve a grade bump, the toning and resultant eye appeal is usually so incredible that price guides don't really apply to those coins. The coins are usually worth many multiples of the price guide of both the technical grade and the "bumped up" market grade.

That said, there are many toned coin collectors who base the value of the toned coin on the base price guide. For example, maybe a collector thinks a rainbow toned MS65 Morgan Dollar is worth 4X price guide, but he doesn't notice that the coin is actually an MS64 that has been bumped to MS65 for the color. In this case, he would be paying a double premium. However, I submit that if you are going to enter the toned coin market, you absolutely need to know what you are doing. Even those who are in tune with the market will end up making mistakes and get buried in a coin here or there.

 

That is excellent news, more amazing coins for the rest of us, and under budget.

 

Spoken like a true dealer or investor. Really, how much does a true collector really care about up or down price trends? Believe it or not, they may just buy the coin for the passion, eye appeal, pleasure of owning it, fully knowing they are in a bidding war, because ten other real collectors are seeing and feeling the same things they are. There is a lot of emotion involved in hobbies. It;s not just about the shallow dealer or investor looking at PRICE, PRICE, PRICE. There are also plenty of unique categories that are not governed by up or down trends (patterns, errors, toners, etc.).