Market Grading vs. Technical Grading - Round 36!!! Ding!

Picture in message - Maybe I dood it (finally!!!!)

OK. Lets try to upload a coin picture ........... I tried the attachment, chose a coin and now lets see if anything comes up! If the pic indeed comes up, these are the type I enjoy dealing in - relatively clean coins, pleasing to the eye, with few "bag marks".

(Now lets see if I can do this again in another message post)

 

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Here is a nice Barber Dime I have had for ages .... your grade, please?

This is a raw Barber Dime, still lustrous and well struck - not the typical condition these type are usually found in as most were heavily circulated.
I am torn between a grade and if anyone out there can help me decide I'd appreciate it.

Now that I think I know how to post pictures I'll give some regulars a run with a "coin show" .............

 

JGAIN,

We are happy that you can post photos, but they don't really have anything to do with the topic of this thread (Market Grading vs Technical Grading). I am not trying to be rude, but this thread has already been hijacked once.

Please start a new thread and post a photo of your barber dime and we would be happy to give you and opinion regarding the grade. Thanks!

 

OK, I notice there's a definite lull in the joint. Here, what do you all think of this?

Market Grading 101

1) Look at the coin.

2) Look through your vast database of auction sales for comparables to the coin (think, here, of the Multiple Listing Service for real estate).

3) Appraise the value of the coin based on the value of the comparables.

4) Assign a grade to the coin based on the grade assigned to the comparables.

5) Leave it to the rest of us confused souls to rationalize a means of justifying what the hell you just did.

 

Eddie,

I think you should visit my guess the grade posts in the coin chat forum and provide us with a technical grade for each coin. There are two different threads:

Guess the Grade--NGC--1885-O Morgan Dollar
Guess the Grade--NGC--1880-S Morgan Dollar

 

I don't assign grades anymore off pictures or scans until I've heard at least five other opinions.

Edited to add: You asked for it--done!

 

I really think the best way to answer this question is by using visual aids. The purpose of the guess the grade posts was to get board member opinions regarding both the technical and market grades of these two coins. Here is a photo of the two coins side by side.





Let's take a good look at the 1885-O coin first. It was unanimous amongst the board members that this coin had superlative surfaces and was deserving from a technical grading standpoint of at least MS65 if not higher. However, everyone also noted that the strike was very weak even for an issue that typically shows a weak strike. The luster on the coin is good but not fantastic and the toning/eye appeal of the coin is great and well deserving of the star designation. IMO, the technical grade of the obverse is MS67 and the reverse is MS65. Since we use the lowest grade of either side to determine overall grade, I would assign a technical grade of MS65. Now for the market grade: PCGS states that a coin with an MS64 grade should have an average strike or above and for MS63 the strike may not be full. Regardless of the typically soft strike for O mint Morgans, this coin does not have a full strike and therefore should not have a market grade above MS63. In this respect, I think NGC has market graded the coin twice. The soft strike limits the grade to MS63 but they felt that the coin was market acceptable at MS64 due to the overall eye appeal of the coin.

The 1880-S Morgan is a different story. The technical grade of this coin is at best MS65 and that is being generous. There is no doubt that the 1885-O has better surfaces than the 1880-S, but since technical grading only gives us MS63, MS65, MS67, I will assign it a technical grade of MS65 as well. This coin has good strike (not great) and both the luster and eye appeal are off the charts. It is difficult to appreciate the luster on this coin from the photos, but I think it is evident that the luster on this coin obviously exceeds that of the 1885-O. The coin has semi-prooflike surfaces with frosted devices on both sides. The toning is remarkable and in combination with the luster appear as vivid liquid colors that possess a pop and flash that create a visually stunning appearance. This coin has obviously been market graded up from an MS65 to MS66 for its incredible eye appeal.

We have two examples of coins that would possess the same technical grade but have been market graded in different directions. Now here is the question that should end the debate. Overall, which is the nicer coin? If almost everyone agrees that the 1880-S is the nicer coin, I would say that market grading is doing it's job.

Two coins with the same technical grade are separated by two points after market grading. The incomplete strike on the 1885-O is so visually distracting that it lost a point and the eye appeal of the 1880-S is so superlative that it gained a point. Personally, I give this advice to the proponents of technical grading. Instead of condemning the TPG's for messing with the grade that seems inconsistent with the technical grade, simply try to understand why the TPG market graded the coin the way that they did. If you can't understand why, then you can consider that the coin is improperly graded or that for subjective reasons, you simply disagree with the assigned grade.

 

I'm guessing this example won't end the debate. :whistle:

 

You're right.

I do understand it. In fact, I did everything but draw everybody a diagram on how it works. It's all about eye-appeal, conceded. In fact, they don't even have the term "technical grading" in their vocabulary--look them up.

But, now, ask me, would I pay MS65/66 money for your MS64 technically-graded Morgans? No. I want to see rainbows, I'll put my Morgan in a baked potato. What's wrong with market grading? Market fads. They come and go. And, along with them, so go every one of these hot-shot market grades. But, the technical grades (and, again, in mint state, I'm defining those as articulable factors relative to the degree and location of bag marks, percentage of luster retained and detail of strike), remain.

Personally, Lehigh, I can see both your Morgan examples selling in the open market above what their technical grades would otherwise warrant in the price guides. Again, not to me, personally. I have a weakness for the blast-whites. But, I can appreciate others preferences. But, let's quit clowning around and calling this market "grading." They're appraising value in the open market based on their vast database of comparables, then assigning the corresponding open market grade. These are TPAs, now ("Third-Party Appraisers"), not TPGs. When they're "market grading," as opposed to technical grading, that's what they are. And, again, they're probably right on target, in the open market, as that exists, today. Heck, they've got the database of comparables to prove it!

So, understand, I've got no problem whatsoever with their appraisals. In fact, that's really their only skill. And, indeed, they're better situated at it than you, I or anyone else, here...aren't they? And now we can say 'nuff said (IMHO).

 

What? I don't know Mr Kotter

 

Starting our Halloween celebrating a little early this year are we Mrbrklyn?

 

We'll - I opened the thread and started reading it and found it enormously funny. Almost passed out on my chair laughing.

 

Oh come on, what's one more round among friends? Hey, I'm buyin...

Anyway, look, I still have one question. The coin is 64, say. No question. Solid. But, nonetheless, it's market-graded/slabbed 65, because it's just that "pretty." Then, people's tastes change, the market goes "south;" now, there are different tastes, and a different market. Do you still have a 65? That's all I want to know.
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eddie get banned round 1 ding
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I beg your pardon?
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did i make the mistake with the number?
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Is it that the question is too challenging for you? I don't understand.


Yes - something very Marx Bros about it....

 

Ahhhh
CoinTalk is becomming PRWE now huh?

I'll sit this one out.

 

Prwe?

 

Oh, I see. Look for a previous thread, same subject line, except 35 instead of 36. It will provide you with what you're missing to understand those remarks. Namely, context. Suffice it to say, "Round 35" was somewhat of a contentious thread, and, being the nice guy I am, I decided we just hadn't had enough. So I started this one.

 

self explanatory

Jazzcoins Joe:whistle:

 

Playing it safe, huh?

 

Respectfully, IMHO, they're more mixed-up than we are. If you'll look at some of the related threads around the time of this one, I think you'll see that.