Discussion in 'US Coins Forum' started by Seascape, Aug 5, 2021.
If you are experienced in these your input is greatly appreciated.
1778 Machins Mills
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Whitman Encyclopedia of Colonial and Early American Coins by Q. David Bowers, the V-12-78B is one of the many Machins Mills counterfeits of English halfpence. The book says it is usually on a rough planchet and this coin certainly more than meets that condition. In addition to the expected planchet roughness of the variety, I think this coin has suffered subsequent post-mint corrosion. Could this be a "dug" coin?
I would give your coin a technical grade of about VF but net grade down to a VG to F. In VF, it's a $1000 coin but in VG it's a $100 coin and in F it's $250. These are from the valuations given in my reference. You should actually look at auction results where you can compare photos of the coin and the prices realized.
Unless you are particularly entranced with this coin for some reason, I would believe that you can find a nicer example if you keep looking.
I do not think its a dug coin. But interesting question none the less. I would think it would look much worse? IDK.
Your price analysis is very in the ball park. Seller wants 295.00 .... but 200.00 is what I was thinking of offering.
Thank very much for the input.
Theres another example I am considering. It doesn't have any of the brown in it that I like. It's more common with a light white gray. Seems more of them share that...than there are with brown tone. It has some pitting that stands out but more details are there. It also doesn't have a flake or chip. Its of a different die variety as well. Maybe I'll post it. He is asking less for it.
1787 V 17-87A R-2
Yep it is a counterfeit, all Machins Mills pieces are counterfeits, contemporary counterfeits. Whether it is a counterfeit of the counterfeit I don't know.
I don't believe it's dug either .
@Seascape , Looks a very good book . I don't quite understand the number and letter designation ( Variety) , but I like how it's like a "puzzle" trying to figure out which one you have .
I assume you were asking me, so yes, that is the book.
I bought this book because it provides a fairly comprehensive look at pretty much all of the recognized Colonial issues and some that are not strictly Colonial but collected within the Colonial framework. As I look for pieces, this book provides some basic information on the coins. Unfortunately, the photos are often too small to be of much use particularly for die attribution and counterfeit detection. But the writeups are pretty good. For detailed information on all the varieties of a specific issue, I will typically buy a specialist publication. For example, when I got serious about buying the Woods Hibernia Farthing and Halfpence, I bought Sydney Martin's opus on those coins.
As for counterfeits as it relates to Machins Mills coinage, the mint operation produced legimate coins on behalf of the various states and also counterfeits of the British coinage which circulated in the colonies and later the states. The 1778 coin you initially inquired about is a contemporary counterfeit struck by Machins Mills.
Now, are there counterfeits of the counterfeits that have been made within living memory? Probably and that's where knowledge, third-party certification, and dealing with a trusted party are all-important.
I just received my 1st Hibernia today. I really like it.
As far as this Machins goes.... not sure where I am at with it. I may just pause the purchase until I get that book. Its on the way. I was pretty impressed with the info you pulled from it. I'll probably appreciate my colonials more if I approach them like that.
Who would dig a book?
I dig books. And babes. And cars and motorcycles. But coins last better underground than any of these.
Folks who collect these coins should try to get a copy of The History and Coinage of Machin's Mills by Howes, Rosen, and Trudgen.
This one was made as a Vermont copper. The reverse was made from one of the dies Machin's used for their counterfeit coins. That's why it is so weak. It was made to look like the coin was worn. If someone else had accepted it, it had to be good, right?
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