Machin Mill 1778

Discussion in 'US Coins Forum' started by Seascape, Aug 5, 2021.

  1. Seascape

    Seascape U.S. & World Collector

    I was wondering if a few of you more experienced Colonial Collectors would mind giving your opinion on this coin. I will most likely make an offer on it soon. Perhaps tonight. I like the coin but I know "about"what I am likely going to have to pay for it. Just want to avoid any major mistakes.

    If you are experienced in these your input is greatly appreciated.

    1778 Machins Mills
    V-12-78B R-3

    Internet_20210805_165447_2.jpeg Internet_20210805_165447_1.jpeg
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  3. Publius2

    Publius2 Well-Known Member

    According to my reference, Whitman Encyclopedia of Colonial and Early American Coins by Q. David Bowers, the V-12-78B is one of the many Machins Mills counterfeits of English halfpence. The book says it is usually on a rough planchet and this coin certainly more than meets that condition. In addition to the expected planchet roughness of the variety, I think this coin has suffered subsequent post-mint corrosion. Could this be a "dug" coin?

    I would give your coin a technical grade of about VF but net grade down to a VG to F. In VF, it's a $1000 coin but in VG it's a $100 coin and in F it's $250. These are from the valuations given in my reference. You should actually look at auction results where you can compare photos of the coin and the prices realized.

    Unless you are particularly entranced with this coin for some reason, I would believe that you can find a nicer example if you keep looking.
  4. Collecting Nut

    Collecting Nut Borderline Hoarder

    This is a coin that has been counterfeited so beware. I like the coin itself but I’m not fond of this particular one. Cheap in lower grades but the price goes up fast as the grade increases.
  5. Seascape

    Seascape U.S. & World Collector

    I am having a hard time finding 1 at all that doesn't exhibit some pitting and corrosion. Especially in my budget. 200.00 - 300.00 .... and really trying to stay closer to 200.00. So that being said I will probably have to live with some of that. Some of them are just ugly with it... some not as much. Personal preference when evaluating that I guess. I think the flake L of the shoulder is more notable for me personally. But For some reason I still have interest.

    I do not think its a dug coin. But interesting question none the less. I would think it would look much worse? IDK.

    Your price analysis is very in the ball park. Seller wants 295.00 .... but 200.00 is what I was thinking of offering.

    Thank very much for the input.
  6. Seascape

    Seascape U.S. & World Collector

    The seller appears to be legit. I've purchased from him in the past. Appears he sticks with colonial type coins. He doesnt offer much else. Hope I'm not being naive. But I trust he vets counterfeit to the best of his ability.

    Theres another example I am considering. It doesn't have any of the brown in it that I like. It's more common with a light white gray. Seems more of them share that...than there are with brown tone. It has some pitting that stands out but more details are there. It also doesn't have a flake or chip. Its of a different die variety as well. Maybe I'll post it. He is asking less for it.
  7. Seascape

    Seascape U.S. & World Collector

    This is the other example I am considering. The porosity is rough ...but in my budget they all are to some extent.

    1787 V 17-87A R-2

    Internet_20210805_184455_2.jpeg Internet_20210805_184455_1.jpeg
  8. Collecting Nut

    Collecting Nut Borderline Hoarder

    Personally, I like the coin in the last photo you posted. It has more wear but less pitting and roughness. It looks more genuine than the first one.
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  9. Conder101

    Conder101 Numismatist

    Yep it is a counterfeit, all Machins Mills pieces are counterfeits, contemporary counterfeits. Whether it is a counterfeit of the counterfeit I don't know.
  10. Seascape

    Seascape U.S. & World Collector

    Is this the book you have?

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  11. SensibleSal66

    SensibleSal66 U.S Casual Collector / Error Collector

    Nice Book. That's it . I need that book too .
    I don't believe it's dug either .
  12. Seascape

    Seascape U.S. & World Collector

    I just bought it. 2 day shipping. Something tells me it will pay for itself.
  13. SensibleSal66

    SensibleSal66 U.S Casual Collector / Error Collector

    @Seascape , Looks a very good book . I don't quite understand the number and letter designation ( Variety) , but I like how it's like a "puzzle" trying to figure out which one you have .
    Seascape likes this.
  14. Publius2

    Publius2 Well-Known Member

    I assume you were asking me, so yes, that is the book.

    I bought this book because it provides a fairly comprehensive look at pretty much all of the recognized Colonial issues and some that are not strictly Colonial but collected within the Colonial framework. As I look for pieces, this book provides some basic information on the coins. Unfortunately, the photos are often too small to be of much use particularly for die attribution and counterfeit detection. But the writeups are pretty good. For detailed information on all the varieties of a specific issue, I will typically buy a specialist publication. For example, when I got serious about buying the Woods Hibernia Farthing and Halfpence, I bought Sydney Martin's opus on those coins.

    As for counterfeits as it relates to Machins Mills coinage, the mint operation produced legimate coins on behalf of the various states and also counterfeits of the British coinage which circulated in the colonies and later the states. The 1778 coin you initially inquired about is a contemporary counterfeit struck by Machins Mills.

    Now, are there counterfeits of the counterfeits that have been made within living memory? Probably and that's where knowledge, third-party certification, and dealing with a trusted party are all-important.
    Seascape likes this.
  15. Seascape

    Seascape U.S. & World Collector

    Yes i was asking you. Thank you.
    I just received my 1st Hibernia today. I really like it.

    As far as this Machins goes.... not sure where I am at with it. I may just pause the purchase until I get that book. Its on the way. I was pretty impressed with the info you pulled from it. I'll probably appreciate my colonials more if I approach them like that.
  16. Treashunt

    Treashunt The Other Frank

    Who would dig a book?
  17. Publius2

    Publius2 Well-Known Member

    I dig books. And babes. And cars and motorcycles. But coins last better underground than any of these.
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  18. Insider

    Insider Talent on loan from...

    I like the second coin much better and no question about its authenticity.

    Folks who collect these coins should try to get a copy of The History and Coinage of Machin's Mills by Howes, Rosen, and Trudgen.
  19. Conder101

    Conder101 Numismatist

    Glad to hear that endorsement, just picked up a copy last Friday but haven't had a chance to go through it yet.
  20. johnmilton

    johnmilton Well-Known Member

    Here is my representative Machin's Mills counterfeit.

    Machin Mills O.jpg Machin Mills R.jpg

    This one was made as a Vermont copper. The reverse was made from one of the dies Machin's used for their counterfeit coins. That's why it is so weak. It was made to look like the coin was worn. If someone else had accepted it, it had to be good, right?

    1787 Vermont All.jpg
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  21. Insider

    Insider Talent on loan from...

    I have a few bought in the late 60's - early 70's when these things were found unattributed in junk boxes and bid boards for less than $5! Now they wwaayyy out of reach. :bigtears::bigtears:
    Jack D. Young likes this.
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