Looking for a safe

With the recent theft of my entire coin collection I need a new and better safe. With the insurance payment I will be buying a new safe. I'm looking for ideas from y'all. Needs to be able to be secured to the home and only room for two rifles. The rest of the space for documents and coins. Any ideas?


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Yes, get a safe deposit box and keep your collection there. It is by far the safest place to store a valuable collection.

If you don't choose that option, then I would encourage you to think through your security from a much higher level than what safe to get. Security starts with restricting knowledge of your collection to as few people as need to know. My wife knows I collect, and my parents know, and that is all. I do not tell friends, co-workers, other relatives, etc. I have a PO box that all coin related mail comes to so that my post office worker does not know. Likewise, people at the auction houses, dealers I purchase coins through do not know my home address. The first order of securing a collection is to keep it as compartmentalized from the rest of your life as possible. People won't steal what they don't know about, and the harder you make it for people to target you, the safer you will be.

In terms of safes, I would also encourage you to not store guns in the same safe as you store coins. I would be concerned that the oil and residual gun powder would create a hazardous environment for long term storage. From there, get a safe you can secure into the foundation and hide, either put behind a false wall, or cover in some inconspicuous way. Last point, leave some non-valuable coins out in an office, like those cheap Whitman folders, so that if someone does come looking for a collection they will grab that thinking they got everything.

I am truly sorry to hear about your lose. I am glad to hear it is making you think hard about security, as we all should. My take away from your story was to think again about the importance of keeping the collection a secret. It sounds like you were a target, which means someone found out you had something valuable. If you can eliminate, or at least cut down, on other people's ability to target you, then you become much safer. And please consider a safe deposit box.

 

I agree with everything @beef1020 said. I, too, think the best alternative would be to use an SDB or two or three if need be.

Why? It was only a few years ago that a collector in Ohio (?) left with the family on vacation. When he returned, he found that his entire collection worth a few hundred thousand dollars was stolen. Yes, it was in a safe. The thieves took the entire safe that weighed 4,000 lbs!

So, my question to you is, "How big a safe do you plan to buy?"

Chris

 

Thanks

These are all things I hadn't really thought about until you mentioned them. For sure no guns in the safe. [emoji848]


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Biggest thing to consider when getting a safe is not the safe itself, but the installation. I have walls all around mine that have steel plates mounted from the inside. Then the safe is bolted down to the floor and wall from INSIDE the safe. The walls on the side do not allow easy crowbar access to the door.

My safe could be cheap as heck, but the security AROUND the safe is what ups the security. A $10,000 safe in the middle of a room and not bolted takes a thief about 5 minutes to crack, if that long. Almost no safe is "safe" enough without adequate installation.

Having said all of that, the high end stuff and gold goes into a SDB anyway.

Btw, I am also very sorry for your loss sir.

 

Security?? Psh, nothing a couple pitbulls and a winchester shotgun cant solve.

Joking of course.

IMHO i dont really trust safty deposit boxes, not right now anyways.

 

There are safes that can be screwed into the floor (usually wood) and that would nearly prevent the removal.

 

I knew a guy who had a small coin business with a home safe. A couple guys broke in while he was at home, held a gun to his wife's head, and he opened the safe. They got away with everything.

 

Also, something to consider... most safes are fire rated. The fire rating means that there is some sort of inherent moisture in the safe or the surrounding material. That's not really the best environment for metal storage. By contrast, safe deposit boxes tend to be in controlled, low humidity (just enough to not have paper crumble, but not too much to have mold growth set in) environments designed to protect documents for long periods of time.

 

Most commercially available safes are crap. Unless you are considering a TL rated safe, don’t waste your money. Fire safes and gun safes can be busted open reasonably quickly with stuff you probably already have in your garage. If you are willing to spend several $1,000’s on a quality high-security safe or vault, your next step would be to locate it in a good spot. Somewhere not obvious (not the master bedroom closet), where it can be secured to the floor (preferably concrete), and where the building’s structure can limit access to the sides and leverage on the door. Be mindful that a 2,000lbs+ safe can damage your house if placed over wood structure. Fire rated composite TL rated safes are large and heavy.

A TL-15 will deter most any common burglar, especially with an alarm system that limits their time in your house. If you are concerned about more professional thieves that may know how to force open a safe, then a TL-30 or TL-30x6 would be better. A monitored alarm system is important here as a thief will have all the time in the world if there is no one there to catch him.

 

I will not discuss specifics of my own security measures nor anyone else's in a public forum. Apologies in advance. But here are a few brief comments.

1. It sounds like you've already been a victim once. That increases the likelihood you'll be targeted in the future. Buying a new safe is, at best, only part of the solution. There's no shame in paying for professional expertise or even sitting down with someone in your police department to review what didn't work last time and to design a new layered solution.
2. Part of that process is what I call "paranoia vs. pocketbook" trade-offs. The cost of comprehensive protection against "professional thieves" is quite high, both in terms of money and inconvenience. Not only are "professional" thieves quite rare, but in order to survive they have to do the same sort of risk-reward calculations. If a "pro" perceives you are a high-risk, low reward target they'll go elsewhere.
3. I don't suggest storing your rifles with your coins for a number of reasons. First, I'd worry about "stuff" coming off your guns such as oil and powder residue finding its way onto your coins. Second, for coins you typically want an inside physical layout that's more suited to jewelry or documents than guns. Third, the access requirements for coins are different than that for self-defense weapons, so you may wish to choose a different unlocking mechanism. Finally, for typical (non-professional) thieves in the U.S. firearms are a more appealing target than coins, so storing them separately gives a thief the incentive to quit while they are ahead.
4. The vast majority of gun "safes" sold in the U.S. are designed to meet insurance company or legal requirements at a fairly low cost. That typically means meeting UL Residential Security Container (RSC) or California DOJ standard. Such a "safe" can be breached in ~5 minutes with battery operated power tools. For even a modest coin collection insurance companies will specify a higher rating, such as TL-15, when deciding how to write coverage. Off-the-shelf TL-15 gun safes do exist; here's one such example. But as noted above, it's not a great configuration for coin storage, and including delivery, setup, and installation costs you can expect to pay well north of $5000. The "all-in" costs for a TL-15 "jewelry and document" safe from the same company is in the $2000 range.
5. Chances are you're not buying a safe to impress anyone. Changing requirement for business insurance and small business turnover makes for a surprisingly robust market in used safes, which can literally save you hundreds of dollars or even more.

 

I seen this post yesterday and haven't replied as I just haven't had the time. My only pieces of advice, yes bolt it down. However remember safe in contact with concrete will rust. Get some cheap hockey pucks. They squish down but keep the safe from resting on concrete.

The main thing I was going to bring up, I agree with @Speedbump get a security system. One that is cellular. A lot of security systems you can find by searching and reading reviews now run off cellular towers. Mine runs from high speed internet and cellular. Also with battery back up. Basically the criminals coming in would need to kill off all cellular signals available. If you are in a rural area, this might go unnoticed but in more populated area, even if they are using jamming equipment. Someone is going to notice. The system I have is pretty instant, unfortunately I have set it off myself. You know system armed at night and the dog wakes you up to go out, makes for an interesting evening. They also have silent alarms, so in the example above where someone says they put a gun to the wifes head and forced them to open the safe. Again, you go enter the code, it is different than your main code. However it does unlock everything, but the code being different tells them send police now, just silently. You can even put a sensor on the door to the room or closet where the safe is. The security company can set it up to require a third and special code to disarm that one and also if that sensor is triggered that is instant alarm.

So yes get a safe, but also a security system. Put the most valuable items in a Safe deposit box at the bank. Also my other bit of advice, when buying a safe, get bigger than you need. Your collection will grow.

 

One thing I recommend, which is what I've done, is to research how to break into safes and safe construction.

As mentioned the gun safes and many other safes are fairly easy to break into, bolted or not. Even some cheap Asian made TL-15s are easy to break in to.

Then it also depends what type of burglar you get. The "smash and grab" types can be slowed by many type of safes. More sophisticated ones may know how to get into simple retail store safes (with just a magnet in some cases, or pick up and throw down on a corner and it'll bust open), where as other may know how to get into B-rated safes (aka Cash boxes - which may have 1/4 inch or 1/8 inch box). There's many options out there.

One of your biggest decision is if you go with a fire rated or not fire rated safe. For instance a B-rated safe is a great deterrent, though not fire rated. Could always put one of those small fire rated carry boxes in a B-rated safe too.

FYI, I also recommend you keep any armament in a different safe than valuables. SDB for the upper end stuff.

here's a head start for your research
ratings ==> https://www.safeandvaultstore.com/burg-ratings

construction (it's about gun safes but contains a lot of good info) ==> http://www.6mmbr.com/gunsafes.html

there's tons of info on how to break into a safe, I'll let you search that out yourself.

Also go to a safe store. They'll probably have a bunch of used safes which can save you a lot of money from buying new, and get a higher quality safe.

 

here's one I meant to post about construction too including various methods of attack ==> http://gunsafereviewsguy.com/articles/myths-about-gun-safe-theft-protection/

 

Why not? Leaving aside environmental/humidity concerns, I would guess that any bank would have far, far better physical security than one could ever hope to have at home. If it's the bank employees you don't trust, well, that's a bigger problem.

 

I think that's the "the government is going to seize your bank accounts, SDB at any moment" to fix the debt theory/conspiracy. Like they did in Greece (I believe)

which had limited impact only if you had large deposits and it was a swap for bank stock (of a bank going down the tubes) ==> http://www.usatoday.com/story/money...nk-of-cyprus-depositors-lose-savings/2595837/

 

Greece never touched SDB's. Cyprus maybe, I cannot recall. Cyprus was kind of weird deal. A ton of the money there was owned by Russian mobsters taking advantage of loose regulations. Therefor, when they looked around for money to steal, the Cypriots naturally chose to take the Russians.

 

There are any number of reasons to not trust the bank with physical items. They could liquidate the contents because payments for the box were not being made or some mistake happened resulting in the system thinking you forfeit the box and its contents. Maybe your free box period has expired and you didn't know, or your accounts no longer meet the requirements for a free box and your aren't notified. The box could be seized as part of a debt resolution that were were not aware of, either legitimate debt, a result of fraud, or an accounting mistakes. blah blah blah

All are technically possible i guess, but not all that likely in reality. Safety deposit boxes are plenty safe for most things you have.

A couple practical things to keep in mind however. A safe/vault at home will hold a lot more than the shoe box they give you at the bank. If you have a decent sized collection, a SDB will not fulfill your storage needs. Also, the bank closes. During off hours, weekends, and holidays, you will not have access to your stuff. Dont store things in SDB's that you enjoy looking at, or like sharing with family or fellow collectors.

 

Well one of the newer problems which you face with safety deposit boxes are newer rules coming out with them. Take chase bank for example last year it banned the storage of cash and coins except that of collectable nature, however no real definition of collectable nature. Also no storage of precious metals. So do 90% junk quarters, Nicole's, dimes count? No bullion silver or gold. Also the contents should not exceed that of $25,000.

https://safedepositboxinsurance.com/2015/04/22/chase-frustrates-and-angers-safe-deposit-box-holders/

So, you have to wonder what all is safe and how they would classify some coins.

 

Listen, I like being able to see my coins whenever i want in the privacy of my own home.

Also i dont trust our government. I dont care what greece may or may not have done. This isnt greece. And frankly, i think i trust a hole in the ground more than a sdb. Thats just my personal preference.

Also i dont have millions or even hundreds of thousands of dollars in coins, but if i did, i think i could afford a nice little vault for my collection. But little old me and my little collection is not going near a safety deposit box.