Log in or Sign up
Coin Talk
Home
Forums
>
Coin Forums
>
Ancient Coins
>
Liquid hot Magna Graecia: The Pythagorean theory/ Broken up about an archaic beauty
>
Reply to Thread
Message:
<p>[QUOTE="Ryro, post: 7572364, member: 91461"]The cities of Southern Italy were doing so well by the sixth century BCE, that they needed a name to let all the <i>lesser</i> Greeks know where they stood in the pecking order. Something that said, "Where more prosperous. We're better. We are just greater than you." Something like, Magna Graecia (greater Greece), only more imaginative... when nothing else came to mind they stuck with that.</p><p>These were massively wealthy heavy hitters like Tarentum, Metapontum, Sybaris, Kroton, Kaulonia, Rhegion, Poseidonia and right around the "toe" of the Italian boot was a city named, wait for it, Zankle (you can't make this up. What's the name of an ancient city at the toe of Italy? In my best German accent, "Zee ankle!" And the ankle was named "Toe-rentum"!!!</p><p>[ATTACH=full]1305546[/ATTACH]</p><p><br /></p><p>For what they lacked in imagination they more than made up with some of the most beautiful coinage, not just of the archaic period but, of all time.</p><p>I like to think my new, David R Sear certified<img src="styles/default/xenforo/clear.png" class="mceSmilieSprite mceSmilie33" alt=":cigar:" unselectable="on" unselectable="on" />, coin certainly belongs in this category<img src="styles/default/xenforo/clear.png" class="mceSmilieSprite mceSmilie26" alt=":bookworm:" unselectable="on" unselectable="on" />, despite an unfortunate (but VERY fortunate for me<img src="styles/default/xenforo/clear.png" class="mceSmilieSprite mceSmilie50" alt=":happy:" unselectable="on" unselectable="on" />) break:</p><p>[ATTACH=full]1305552[/ATTACH]</p><p>Bruttium, Kaulonia. Circa 525-500 BC. AR Nomos (31 mm, 6.63 g).</p><p>Obv. Apollo advancing right, holding branch aloft in right hand, left arm extended, upon which a small daimon, holding branch in each hand, runs right; KAVΛ to left; to right, stag standing right, head reverted.</p><p>Rev. Incuse of obverse, but daimon in outline and no ethnic.</p><p>Noe, Caulonia Group A, 1 (same dies).</p><p>Rare. Cracked in three parts, otherwise, very fine/fine</p><p>Purchased from Auctiones gmbh March 2021</p><p><br /></p><p>The Kaulonia Stater clearly is from the same dies as Noe, Caulonia, Group A, 1:</p><p>[ATTACH=full]1305557[/ATTACH]</p><p>It has quite a lot of horn silver and is very much crystallized. David R Sear believes someone may have been attempting to clean up the horn silver on the reverse when the break occurred. Both phenomena (horn silver/crystallization) are often seen on these early nomoi from Kaulonia as well as on the parallel coinage of Metapontum Kroton (for example: <a href="https://www.acsearch.info/search.html?term=kaulonia+nomos+horn&category=1-2&en=1&de=1&fr=1&it=1&es=1&ot=1&images=1&thesaurus=1&order=1&currency=usd&company=" target="_blank" class="externalLink ProxyLink" data-proxy-href="https://www.acsearch.info/search.html?term=kaulonia+nomos+horn&category=1-2&en=1&de=1&fr=1&it=1&es=1&ot=1&images=1&thesaurus=1&order=1&currency=usd&company=" rel="nofollow">https://www.acsearch.info/search.html?term=kaulonia+nomos+horn&category=1-2&en=1&de=1&fr=1&it=1&es=1&ot=1&images=1&thesaurus=1&order=1&currency=usd&company=</a> or <a href="https://www.acsearch.info/search.html?term=kaulonia+nomos+corr&category=1-2&en=1&de=1&fr=1&it=1&es=1&ot=1&images=1&thesaurus=1&order=1&currency=usd&company=" target="_blank" class="externalLink ProxyLink" data-proxy-href="https://www.acsearch.info/search.html?term=kaulonia+nomos+corr&category=1-2&en=1&de=1&fr=1&it=1&es=1&ot=1&images=1&thesaurus=1&order=1&currency=usd&company=" rel="nofollow">https://www.acsearch.info/search.html?term=kaulonia+nomos+corr&category=1-2&en=1&de=1&fr=1&it=1&es=1&ot=1&images=1&thesaurus=1&order=1&currency=usd&company=</a>) Without my coins issues, this is coin type that usually sells for CHF 5000 and more. A smaller drachm currently up for auction is at $9,000... with over a week left until auction!</p><p>Funny enough, reading a wonderful recommend from our own [USER=19463]@dougsmit[/USER], Collecting Greek Coins, I found their example was from the same dies as mine, Noe, Caulonia, Group A, 1<img src="styles/default/xenforo/clear.png" class="mceSmilieSprite mceSmilie77" alt=":pompous:" unselectable="on" unselectable="on" />:</p><p><br /></p><p>[ATTACH=full]1305575[/ATTACH]</p><p><br /></p><p><br /></p><p>Due to the immense value (despite having paid so little, thanks to the break<img src="styles/default/xenforo/clear.png" class="mceSmilieSprite mceSmilie2" alt=";)" unselectable="on" unselectable="on" />) I decided to send it along with a handful of ancients treasures to the foremost in ancient coin authentication, bar none, David R Sear. Talk about an amazing experience. I plan on doing a full write up on the experience, as it was such a delight, when time permits.</p><p>Here's what Mr Sear had to say:</p><p>[ATTACH=full]1305558[/ATTACH]</p><p><br /></p><p>Magna Graecia also showed some unique innovations that we would never see on coins again. Most notably, an obverse with raised designs and a reverse with a sunken in design. But don't be fooled. They weren't incuse in the more traditional sense. Though, they looked similar, upon closer examination you'll find subtle differences. Meaning they had to take the time to ensure the dies were perfectly aligned as they struck! Made all the more difficult by the thin flans they used!! Technically, they were of the highest standards and may have been made using the "lost wax" method. Though, this may be a simplification of a very intensive process:</p><p>[ATTACH=full]1305579[/ATTACH]</p><p>(Actual footage of ancient Magna Graecian during the process)</p><p><br /></p><p>So, what's the story with the dynamic and innovative coinage of this magical place. To answer that we need to take a look back at what was going on around this time.</p><p>A guy named Pythagoras (yes, the same philosopher and mathematician that made high school a little more unbearable. Though, "his" theorem was being used in Asia nearly a thousand years previous. Never let the truth ruin a good story),</p><p>[ATTACH=full]1305580[/ATTACH](he certainly looks smarter than you)</p><p><br /></p><p>moved from his home on Samos in about 535 BCE to Kroton. So big was he at the time, the citizens identified him with Apollo, their local diety. Now, Pythagoras father was a gem engraver, which we know would often also cut dies for coinage, and used to practice his father's art back in Samos. With the "lost wax" method being known to him in Samos, it is certainly plausible that Pythagoras shared it with his new people while inventing a new type of coinage. Due to the mounting evidence the type is often referred to as Pythagorean.</p><p>All that said, we have no proof. Only anecdotal evidence, thick as it may be. And the Pythagoras <i>theory </i>will remain just that.</p><p>Shortly after Pythagoras death in 510 BCE the greater Greeks fell into squabbling with each other to the point that only Tarentum was the only major power left. All were eventually consumed by Rome of course...</p><p>[ATTACH=full]1305583[/ATTACH]</p><p><br /></p><p>A couple other magnificent Graecians:</p><p>[ATTACH=full]1305586[/ATTACH]</p><p>BRUTTIUM, Rhegion</p><p>Circa 415/0-387 BCE. Æ 11mm (1.76 gm). Lion's head facing / PHΓIN[...], laureate head of Apollo right. Cf. SNG ANS 702; HN Italy 2524. Good VF, dark green patina.</p><p><br /></p><p>[ATTACH=full]1305587[/ATTACH]</p><p>Lucania, Metapontion</p><p>Triobol, , c. 440-430 BC; AE (g 0,99; mm 10; h 12); Head of Apollo/Herakles (?) Carneios r., Rv. META, barley ear. Noe 363-365; HNItaly 1509.</p><p>Rare, about very fine.</p><p>Ex: Artemide Aste</p><p><br /></p><p>Please share your coins of Magna Graecia, archaic coins, busted beauties and or anything GREATER than mother Greece<img src="styles/default/xenforo/clear.png" class="mceSmilieSprite mceSmilie101" alt=":woot:" unselectable="on" unselectable="on" />[/QUOTE]</p><p><br /></p>
[QUOTE="Ryro, post: 7572364, member: 91461"]The cities of Southern Italy were doing so well by the sixth century BCE, that they needed a name to let all the [I]lesser[/I] Greeks know where they stood in the pecking order. Something that said, "Where more prosperous. We're better. We are just greater than you." Something like, Magna Graecia (greater Greece), only more imaginative... when nothing else came to mind they stuck with that. These were massively wealthy heavy hitters like Tarentum, Metapontum, Sybaris, Kroton, Kaulonia, Rhegion, Poseidonia and right around the "toe" of the Italian boot was a city named, wait for it, Zankle (you can't make this up. What's the name of an ancient city at the toe of Italy? In my best German accent, "Zee ankle!" And the ankle was named "Toe-rentum"!!! [ATTACH=full]1305546[/ATTACH] For what they lacked in imagination they more than made up with some of the most beautiful coinage, not just of the archaic period but, of all time. I like to think my new, David R Sear certified:cigar:, coin certainly belongs in this category:bookworm:, despite an unfortunate (but VERY fortunate for me:happy:) break: [ATTACH=full]1305552[/ATTACH] Bruttium, Kaulonia. Circa 525-500 BC. AR Nomos (31 mm, 6.63 g). Obv. Apollo advancing right, holding branch aloft in right hand, left arm extended, upon which a small daimon, holding branch in each hand, runs right; KAVΛ to left; to right, stag standing right, head reverted. Rev. Incuse of obverse, but daimon in outline and no ethnic. Noe, Caulonia Group A, 1 (same dies). Rare. Cracked in three parts, otherwise, very fine/fine Purchased from Auctiones gmbh March 2021 The Kaulonia Stater clearly is from the same dies as Noe, Caulonia, Group A, 1: [ATTACH=full]1305557[/ATTACH] It has quite a lot of horn silver and is very much crystallized. David R Sear believes someone may have been attempting to clean up the horn silver on the reverse when the break occurred. Both phenomena (horn silver/crystallization) are often seen on these early nomoi from Kaulonia as well as on the parallel coinage of Metapontum Kroton (for example: [URL]https://www.acsearch.info/search.html?term=kaulonia+nomos+horn&category=1-2&en=1&de=1&fr=1&it=1&es=1&ot=1&images=1&thesaurus=1&order=1¤cy=usd&company=[/URL] or [URL]https://www.acsearch.info/search.html?term=kaulonia+nomos+corr&category=1-2&en=1&de=1&fr=1&it=1&es=1&ot=1&images=1&thesaurus=1&order=1¤cy=usd&company=[/URL]) Without my coins issues, this is coin type that usually sells for CHF 5000 and more. A smaller drachm currently up for auction is at $9,000... with over a week left until auction! Funny enough, reading a wonderful recommend from our own [USER=19463]@dougsmit[/USER], Collecting Greek Coins, I found their example was from the same dies as mine, Noe, Caulonia, Group A, 1:pompous:: [ATTACH=full]1305575[/ATTACH] Due to the immense value (despite having paid so little, thanks to the break;)) I decided to send it along with a handful of ancients treasures to the foremost in ancient coin authentication, bar none, David R Sear. Talk about an amazing experience. I plan on doing a full write up on the experience, as it was such a delight, when time permits. Here's what Mr Sear had to say: [ATTACH=full]1305558[/ATTACH] Magna Graecia also showed some unique innovations that we would never see on coins again. Most notably, an obverse with raised designs and a reverse with a sunken in design. But don't be fooled. They weren't incuse in the more traditional sense. Though, they looked similar, upon closer examination you'll find subtle differences. Meaning they had to take the time to ensure the dies were perfectly aligned as they struck! Made all the more difficult by the thin flans they used!! Technically, they were of the highest standards and may have been made using the "lost wax" method. Though, this may be a simplification of a very intensive process: [ATTACH=full]1305579[/ATTACH] (Actual footage of ancient Magna Graecian during the process) So, what's the story with the dynamic and innovative coinage of this magical place. To answer that we need to take a look back at what was going on around this time. A guy named Pythagoras (yes, the same philosopher and mathematician that made high school a little more unbearable. Though, "his" theorem was being used in Asia nearly a thousand years previous. Never let the truth ruin a good story), [ATTACH=full]1305580[/ATTACH](he certainly looks smarter than you) moved from his home on Samos in about 535 BCE to Kroton. So big was he at the time, the citizens identified him with Apollo, their local diety. Now, Pythagoras father was a gem engraver, which we know would often also cut dies for coinage, and used to practice his father's art back in Samos. With the "lost wax" method being known to him in Samos, it is certainly plausible that Pythagoras shared it with his new people while inventing a new type of coinage. Due to the mounting evidence the type is often referred to as Pythagorean. All that said, we have no proof. Only anecdotal evidence, thick as it may be. And the Pythagoras [I]theory [/I]will remain just that. Shortly after Pythagoras death in 510 BCE the greater Greeks fell into squabbling with each other to the point that only Tarentum was the only major power left. All were eventually consumed by Rome of course... [ATTACH=full]1305583[/ATTACH] A couple other magnificent Graecians: [ATTACH=full]1305586[/ATTACH] BRUTTIUM, Rhegion Circa 415/0-387 BCE. Æ 11mm (1.76 gm). Lion's head facing / PHΓIN[...], laureate head of Apollo right. Cf. SNG ANS 702; HN Italy 2524. Good VF, dark green patina. [ATTACH=full]1305587[/ATTACH] Lucania, Metapontion Triobol, , c. 440-430 BC; AE (g 0,99; mm 10; h 12); Head of Apollo/Herakles (?) Carneios r., Rv. META, barley ear. Noe 363-365; HNItaly 1509. Rare, about very fine. Ex: Artemide Aste Please share your coins of Magna Graecia, archaic coins, busted beauties and or anything GREATER than mother Greece:woot:[/QUOTE]
Your name or email address:
Do you already have an account?
No, create an account now.
Yes, my password is:
Forgot your password?
Stay logged in
Coin Talk
Home
Forums
>
Coin Forums
>
Ancient Coins
>
Liquid hot Magna Graecia: The Pythagorean theory/ Broken up about an archaic beauty
>
Home
Home
Quick Links
Search Forums
Recent Activity
Recent Posts
Forums
Forums
Quick Links
Search Forums
Recent Posts
Competitions
Competitions
Quick Links
Competition Index
Rules, Terms & Conditions
Gallery
Gallery
Quick Links
Search Media
New Media
Showcase
Showcase
Quick Links
Search Items
Most Active Members
New Items
Directory
Directory
Quick Links
Directory Home
New Listings
Members
Members
Quick Links
Notable Members
Current Visitors
Recent Activity
New Profile Posts
Sponsors
Menu
Search
Search titles only
Posted by Member:
Separate names with a comma.
Newer Than:
Search this thread only
Search this forum only
Display results as threads
Useful Searches
Recent Posts
More...