Lion Thaler Counterfeit?

I'm sure you will get an earful of strong opposite opinions if you put that question to Austrians or Swiss. Do you not own a copy of the Standard Catalog of World Coins?

 

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I’m sure I wouldn’t, as the (German) Holy Roman Empire ruled over Austria, Germany and Switzerland at that time. Also, the Teutonic Order in German is actually translated in English to the German Order. NGC even recognizes the Teutonic Order Talers as German States coinage. https://www.ngccoin.com/price-guide...r-thaler-km-25-1613-cuid-1162467-duid-1390117

I think you’re taking the term German a little too literal as meaning Germany instead of Germanic. I don't take this same literal meaning and give a little leeway to allow for the fact that the Holy Roman Empire stretched across all these lands. Perhaps the more accurate term for the coinage would be "Holy Roman Empire Coinage", but that is not an option in any of the World Catalogs.

Besides, Basel has a Germanic background and it wasn’t until the 1800s that they started favoring the French lifestyle over the German. https://www.bs.ch/en/Portrait/cosmopolitan-basel/history.html

Again, Basel may not be accurately included in the German states coinage, but it falls into the same era, under the same Germanic empire, and there are similarities with the designs of German states coins. Inclusion of Basel and Tyrol (Hall) in German states coinage is not borne out of my ignorance, but personal opinion based on my knowledge of the region's history and the German language. I would be happy to have the discussion with them in German, since residents of Basel, Hall and I all speak that language.

Also, since you asked the rhetorical question about World Catalogs, here's a snippet from the 1601-1700 catalog:
"Although the origin of the German Empire can be traced to the Treaty of Verdun that ceded Charlemagne’s lands east of the Rhine to German Prince Louis, it was for centuries little more than a geographic expression, consisting of hundreds of effectively autonomous big and little states. Nominally the states owed their allegiance to the Holy Roman Emperor, who was also a German king, but as the Emperors exhibited less and less concern for Germany the actual power devolved on the lords of the individual states. The fragmentation of the empire climaxed with the tragic denouement of the Thirty Years War, 1618-48, which devastated much of Germany, destroyed its agriculture and medieval commercial eminence and ended the attempt of the Hapsburgs to unify Germany. Deprived of administrative capacity by a lack of resources, the imperial authority became utterly powerless."

Here's a snippet from the same book talking about the Bishopric of Augsburg:
"Founded in the late 9th century in the city of Augsburg, the bishopric eventually extended as far as the Bavarian frontier on the north and east, to Tyrol on the south and to Upper Swabia on the west."

A snippet about the free city of Freiburg, Germany: "Freiburg struck coins in accordance with the provisions of that monetary union of South German and Swiss entities."

Anyway, what I think we are doing is really arguing opinions. I'm fine with you saying the Basel coins don't belong in the German States coinage. The ones from Hall in Tyrol, however, unequivocally are German States coinage.

 

I agree with everything there.

German States is an American convention too, and not necessarily the terminology they use in Austria, Germany, or Switzerland. It's a term that is mostly only as good as it is useful. It just helps us group together a lot of the different sovereign entities in that central european area that now overlaps with present day Germany.

I think it's important to differentiate between current countries/boundaries and the countries/boundaries that existed when coins were minted like you are doing.

German, through history, has been more of a cultural term than political. Even France is Germanic.

 

Well argued, @Seattlite86. Enjoy your time in Germany.

 

Sorry, perhaps a little overdone. I love the coinage from this era. I just wish my budget matches my eyes. It’s interesting to see what Davenport estimated their values to be and what they are now. My time in Germany ends in a month or so. Been a fun run!

 

As "the closest fella specialising in these kinds of coins" I can help clarify that the coin is in fact a contemporary counterfeit of the silver wash over brass/copper type. It is not the Rietberg type, as they specifically say EOED RIDTHF (or some derivative thereof) in the legend. This example bears the legend imitating the genuine coins of the province of Holland (ORDIN* HOL*).

I am including a better photograph that shows correct color and better detail of the piece. If you look closely at the center of the edge photo, you can see where the sunken area protected the silver wash from wearing off, but on the higher areas the brass is showing through. The weight of 23.4g. is significantly below correct weight standard for the genuine issues. Note the cuts/scratches on the soldier's midsection. It is likely someone was suspicious of this piece at the time it was circulating, and they cut/scratched the coin to try and see if there was underlying base metal. An interesting piece for sure, but not a genuine lion daalder.

 

Josh, thank you so much for taking a look at this coin for our store! I greatly appreciate you sharing your expertise and identifying this coin for me. I thought it was a fascinating piece and knowing for sure what it is makes me love it even more. I’m glad you were able to help me out and the pictures you took are fantastic.

Thank you again for all of your help and for taking the time to look at this coin. Hearing from you has certainly made my day!

With Gratitude,
Amanda

 

Ain't that the truth.....

 

Not a problem. I'll get the coin back to you as soon as possible.

 

I should. It seems there's more activity here in the Ancient/Medieval/World coinage topics than on other sites I visit these days.