Limes Denarius

I'm not into collecting contemporary counterfeits like fourees, barbarous, etc. (No. Gothic/Vandal aren't counterfeits ) , but this one was in great shape (aside from the spots on the reverse), of a less-than-common emperor (Lucius Verus), and at a price I could live with, so I went for it. I understand these limes denarii may not have been to deceive but could also have been made as money of necessity, especially in border areas where money would have been scarce and soldiers stationed there needed currency to buy with, hence their name, "limes" (Latin for border/limit, pronounced "lie-meez"). I am quite impressed by the quality of it, for being an unofficial issue. Its pretty smooth to the touch and its also a color I really like on ancient bronzes. Looks like several of these could have been silver plated (were these actually originally silver-plated???), mixed in a bag with genuine denarii and no one would have been the wiser (hopefully).

I'm too lazy to type anymore right now, so I'll just give the links of the genuine attribution for it:

http://www.wildwinds.com/coins/ric/lucius_verus/RIC_0542.txt

http://www.wildwinds.com/coins/ric/lucius_verus/RIC_0542.jpg


(the obverse isn't as grainy in hand as in the photo)


If anyone could post more info on limes denarii, I'd appreciate it

 

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cool coin VK, I think these kind of go along with martins postumus coin thread as far as what's official and what isn't.

neat coin...whatever it is.

 

Not a limes, but heres a counterfeit of Lucius Verus mule(faustina rev.) I remeber reading a theory about counterfeits made to be easily spotted, by the counterfeiters, so they wouldn't get them back.

 

I have a mystery RR bronze denarius of Crepusius. What is it? Fouree core? Base metal test strike? Was it plated or silvered at some time? What's left of the devices suggests the engraver was no hack. Did Crepusius make counterfeits of his own denarii?



It strikes me that if you want to collect these sorts of things, you've got to embrace the mystery.

 

Exactly!

 

I haven't seen a AE denarius of Lucius Verus that I can recall offhand. Congrats, nice coin.

Some people think these types of coins are AE denarii rather than "limes" coins which were made on the border of the Roman Empire. I can't remember which ones are labeled "limes" by certain numismatists. I will look it up later.

It's a mystery about these coins, if they were official and made when the silver ran out, made by counterfeiters, minters scamming the silver, etc. I've noticed that there are a lot of these coins from Trajan through the Severn Dynasty. A lot of them are of high quality.

 

Macrinus AE Denarius. 217-218 AD, 2.6g, 18mm

OBV: IMP C M OPEL SEV MACRINVS AVG. Laureate and cuirassed bust right.

REV: FELICITAS TEMPORVM, Felicitas standing left holding short caduceus and scepter.

REF: RIC 62, RSC 19a, BMC 9

 

Septimus Severus AE Denarius. 196-197 AD. 3.5g, 19mm

OBV: L SEPT SEV PERT AVG IMP VIII, Laureate head right.

REV: PROVIDEN-TIA AVG, Providentia standing left with wand over orb & sceptre in other hand.

REF: RIC 92v, RSC 592c

 

Geta as Caesar AE Denarius. 202 AD, 4.1g, 18mm

OBV: P SEPT GETA CAES PONT, Draped bust right.

REV: SECVRIT IMPERII, Securitas seated left, holding globe.

REF: RIC 20, RSC 183, BMC 240, Sear (RCV 2000) 7200

 

I only owned one & it was of Faustina I. Unloaded it in a trade a few years ago. Dont miss it, lol.

Nice coins, everyone.

 

Can somebody - ANYBODY - point me to some actual scholarship on these? I'd be particularly interested in proof that they actually come from at or beyond the borders. In my experience, the only true "limesfalsa" are cast bronze coins (asses and sestertii) found at some of the Rhine forts and, to a lesser extent, in Britain.

My personal theory is that these are, for the rougher examples, exposed fourrée cores. The smoother, more aes-like examples, like Valiant's, were originally silvered in a similar manner as the late 3rd century antoniniani and the early folles. I know of a few examples in private collections to support this idea. I also know of an example struck with the reverse of a provincial issue of Moesia Inferior - implying that they come from within the Empire.

 

I agree with you Bill. "Limes" is a convenient catchall for fourree cores, contemporary counterfeits, etc. without really denoting where they were struck IMHO. I do believe a large number of crude LRB's have been found in Germany, Austria, and France, but I am guessing this is more the further from Rome you got the less a coin actually had to match the originals and be readable, yet these areas were underserved by the mints, so more eggregious examples were cast/struck there. I actually like these "celticized" LRBs and would like to start a collection of them if I didn't have so many other collections/hoards going on.

 

A quick geographical guide to ancient imitations:

- 1st century - Augustus - asses and dupondii - Balkans (moneyer type) and Gaul (Altar of Lugdunum)
- 1st century - Augustus & Tiberius - full silver denarii - India
- 1st century - Claudius - sestertii, dupondii, and asses - Balkans (sestertii, Spes type) and Gaul (asses and dupondii). NONE struck in Britain
- 1st-3rd century - Various rulers - Plated denarii - everywhere, it was a global phenomenon
- 2nd century - Antoninine rulers - sestertii, dupondii, and asses - cast copies at borders and in Spain and Gaul
- 2nd century - Antonine rulers - full silver denarii - Dacia
- 2nd-3rd century - Antonine and Severan rulers - full gold aurei - India
- 3rd century - Gallienus and the Gallic emperors - antoniniani, 'radiates' - Spain, Gaul, North Africa. Very few actually produced in Britain, none outside of the Empire
- 3rd century - Tetrarchic rulers - large cast folles - Egypt
- 4th century - Constantine & Sons - folles - Balkan region, primarily the two-victories and altar type
- 4th century - City commemoratives - folles - Britain and Gaul
- 4th century - Constantius II - fallen horseman type - Most within the empire, particularly the early cast imitations. Later ones *may* have been produced outside.
- 4th century - Theodosius & family - struck bronzes - Within the empire
- 4th-5th century - late rulers - full silver and clipped siliquae - Britain
- 5th century - late rulers - crude nummi and small bronzes - Across the empire

Note that only two of these, and virtually none of the bronzes, are truly 'barbarous.' That's why I always call them 'contemporary imitations.'

 

Great list. I guess my own point of view would somewhat argue about your last sentence. In the late Roman Empire and the "migration period" I bet that quite a few of these imitative coins were probably indeed produced at "barbaric mints", just like we have identified Gepids, Vandals, and others producing later. We have not been able to prove or identify these, so they all get lumped together. But, theoretically, I believe that some late roman imitative issues had to have been the "official coins" of some of these German tribes moving in. In that way only I would give a little more latitude to the use of limes coinage for these late bronzes.

 

This paper is a basic introduction, but the sources in the bibliography look like they're worth hunting down.

https://www.academia.edu/3632930/Plated_and_other_fake_Roman_coins

 

I'm actually familiar with most of those articles. I wrote my junior undergrad thesis on counterfeiting in Roman Britain. The Gazdac (2009) article was not available to me at the time, but could offer some insight.

Gazdac C. (2009) The distribution of silver counterfeited coins in the forts from Roman Dacia,fraud or monetary policy? In: Limes XX - XXth international congress of Roman frontier studies2006. pp. 1487-1498

 

My site:
http://esty.ancients.info/imit/
illustrates many ancient imitations and has an extensive annotated bibliography on the "references" page:
http://esty.ancients.info/imit/imitationrefs.html
Ancient imitation denarii that are of very base metal and apparently not plated, which are now called "limes" denarii, were almost unstudied in the west prior to opening up of eastern Europe. Most seem to come from the Danube region which was behind the Iron Curtain. There are probably new articles I don't know about, but I used to know the scholarly literature on imitations well and as of ten years ago there was not much on these. Overall, if you like ancient imitations, Boon's long article is probably still the most valuable.

 

Outstanding work, Valentinian!

 

I'm not sure limes coins and fouree' coins are the same. i have 6 fouree' coins with silver left on the coins, 5 weigh around 2.50 g and are all about 17mm, one is 19mm and right at 3g.
I have what i was told was a limes Denarius of Julia Mamaea, the coin weigh is 3.75g. and is 20mm. also is well struck, with no hint of silvering. if it had any silver added like a fouree' its weight would put it over 4g. the flat side of the edge of the coin, i took a file to it, i was told it was silver under the dark outside, it was bronze all the way.
I think this is a very interesting subject. some things we may never know..

Julia Mamaea..222-235..AD.
Mother of Severn Alexander
No bronze found in this discription.
Ric 331..there are 9 different rev. for this coin.
20mm x 3.75g.

 

I am not really into Romans, but i do have one that i have labeled as a possible "Limes"/imitation: It's a Gordian III, 21 x 23 mm 3.6 gr.
The spots are not deposits on the coin, but have eaten away into the surface.
The diagonal discontinuity on the reverse is not some reflection. There are two surface types on this side (And i did not mistreat the coin by dipping it in some chemical)