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<p>[QUOTE="GDJMSP, post: 3096313, member: 112"]Interesting experiments and well written. I find 2 things I would address, well 3 really but only 2 that you actually mentioned.</p><p><br /></p><p><br /></p><p><br /></p><p>This is imperative. But there's more to it than just the number of decimal places, the scales also have to be extremely accurate if you wish to test SG and quite frankly most of the ones you can buy today are not. They'll get ya close but how close is close enough ?</p><p><br /></p><p><br /></p><p><br /></p><p>What a lot of folks don't realize, understand, or are simply unaware of is that even 2,000 years ago it was a precise science. They seem to think that just because it was so long ago that people could not have done what they do today. But they are wrong on that count. As a matter of fact the mints of ancient and subsequent periods followed much tighter tolerances than any of the mints of today.</p><p><br /></p><p>The ancients and all those who followed them had the ability to refine and create alloys of gold and silver to whatever degree of fineness they wished, and out to 3 or 4 decimal places. They also had very accurate but simple and quickly performed testing methods. Methods that are still in use even today. But they had them 2,000 years ago, and they used them. </p><p><br /></p><p>So if what I just said is true, why then would your findings, your results of testing, and not just yours but the reported tests of many others as well, be what they are ? How and why would the expected or specified fineness of the metal be off, and less than they should be ? The answer is really quite simple, it is precisely because they did have the ability to produce coins of whatever fineness they desired. The coins turned out exactly as they wanted them to be. </p><p><br /></p><p>You see, they intentionally cheated ! They quite often produced coins with a fineness lower than specified. And they would also produce coins of lower weight at times. But usually in tiny amounts to make it less likely for them to get caught.</p><p><br /></p><p>Now sometimes the minters of years gone by did get caught and sometimes they suffered severe penalties. But other times they got away with it. And in either case, caught or not caught, many of those debased coins still exist today and when they are tested we get the results we get. And because most are unaware of the things I have explained they draw the wrong conclusion and think the ancients just couldn't be as accurate as they needed to be.</p><p><br /></p><p>The 3rd thing I mentioned above is this, SG only tells you so much in regard to authenticity. Specific gravity can give you an indication of authenticity but not proof of it, in either direction. There's a couple of reasons for this, one is the accuracy of your testing, between the scales you use, your methods, your materials, it's easy to make mistakes and have skewed or unexpected results. Another is tolerances that were in effect at the time. </p><p><br /></p><p>Sure, we do the research and find out what the specified fineness and weights were, but very, very few ever do the research to find out what the tolerances were. And there were always tolerances specified. I'll use Netherlands gold ducats as an example because I know more about than anything else. The specified fineness is well known, for centuries it was 0.986. But what few know is that the tolerance specified by law was 0.981. So coins produced of metal with a fineness anywhere between 0.981 and 0.986 (or slightly above and some were) were perfectly legal. And in later years the specified fineness itself changed, it was dropped to 0.983, and the tolerance for that was dropped to .0980. </p><p><br /></p><p>So, if you're testing the SG of Netherlands gold ducats you absolutely MUST know these things, otherwise you'll have no idea if your results are accurate or not !</p><p><br /></p><p>And you have to realize and understand that it's not just Netherlands gold ducats, these things are true with the coins of all countries and all time periods. The fineness, the weight, the tolerances - all of these things changed in different years and at different mints ! One mint could be required to follow one set of rules and another mint might follow another - with both producing the same coins ! How, why ? Because each mint can be under the minting authority of different entities, and in different time periods. </p><p><br /></p><p>And lastly, when it comes to determining the authenticity of a coin there is always one more thing you have to be aware of. It was not uncommon for one government to counterfeit the coins of another government. But the counterfeit coins would the exact fineness, the exact weight, the exact size, and the same design - they were supposed to have ! So you could run the most accurate specific gravity tests that could possibly be done, get exactly the results you're supposed to get, and the coin can still be a counterfeit !</p><p><br /></p><p>So unless you know all of things as well, or even if you do know them, you still can't prove authenticity with SG. At best, SG is merely an indicator of authenticity.[/QUOTE]</p><p><br /></p>
[QUOTE="GDJMSP, post: 3096313, member: 112"]Interesting experiments and well written. I find 2 things I would address, well 3 really but only 2 that you actually mentioned. This is imperative. But there's more to it than just the number of decimal places, the scales also have to be extremely accurate if you wish to test SG and quite frankly most of the ones you can buy today are not. They'll get ya close but how close is close enough ? What a lot of folks don't realize, understand, or are simply unaware of is that even 2,000 years ago it was a precise science. They seem to think that just because it was so long ago that people could not have done what they do today. But they are wrong on that count. As a matter of fact the mints of ancient and subsequent periods followed much tighter tolerances than any of the mints of today. The ancients and all those who followed them had the ability to refine and create alloys of gold and silver to whatever degree of fineness they wished, and out to 3 or 4 decimal places. They also had very accurate but simple and quickly performed testing methods. Methods that are still in use even today. But they had them 2,000 years ago, and they used them. So if what I just said is true, why then would your findings, your results of testing, and not just yours but the reported tests of many others as well, be what they are ? How and why would the expected or specified fineness of the metal be off, and less than they should be ? The answer is really quite simple, it is precisely because they did have the ability to produce coins of whatever fineness they desired. The coins turned out exactly as they wanted them to be. You see, they intentionally cheated ! They quite often produced coins with a fineness lower than specified. And they would also produce coins of lower weight at times. But usually in tiny amounts to make it less likely for them to get caught. Now sometimes the minters of years gone by did get caught and sometimes they suffered severe penalties. But other times they got away with it. And in either case, caught or not caught, many of those debased coins still exist today and when they are tested we get the results we get. And because most are unaware of the things I have explained they draw the wrong conclusion and think the ancients just couldn't be as accurate as they needed to be. The 3rd thing I mentioned above is this, SG only tells you so much in regard to authenticity. Specific gravity can give you an indication of authenticity but not proof of it, in either direction. There's a couple of reasons for this, one is the accuracy of your testing, between the scales you use, your methods, your materials, it's easy to make mistakes and have skewed or unexpected results. Another is tolerances that were in effect at the time. Sure, we do the research and find out what the specified fineness and weights were, but very, very few ever do the research to find out what the tolerances were. And there were always tolerances specified. I'll use Netherlands gold ducats as an example because I know more about than anything else. The specified fineness is well known, for centuries it was 0.986. But what few know is that the tolerance specified by law was 0.981. So coins produced of metal with a fineness anywhere between 0.981 and 0.986 (or slightly above and some were) were perfectly legal. And in later years the specified fineness itself changed, it was dropped to 0.983, and the tolerance for that was dropped to .0980. So, if you're testing the SG of Netherlands gold ducats you absolutely MUST know these things, otherwise you'll have no idea if your results are accurate or not ! And you have to realize and understand that it's not just Netherlands gold ducats, these things are true with the coins of all countries and all time periods. The fineness, the weight, the tolerances - all of these things changed in different years and at different mints ! One mint could be required to follow one set of rules and another mint might follow another - with both producing the same coins ! How, why ? Because each mint can be under the minting authority of different entities, and in different time periods. And lastly, when it comes to determining the authenticity of a coin there is always one more thing you have to be aware of. It was not uncommon for one government to counterfeit the coins of another government. But the counterfeit coins would the exact fineness, the exact weight, the exact size, and the same design - they were supposed to have ! So you could run the most accurate specific gravity tests that could possibly be done, get exactly the results you're supposed to get, and the coin can still be a counterfeit ! So unless you know all of things as well, or even if you do know them, you still can't prove authenticity with SG. At best, SG is merely an indicator of authenticity.[/QUOTE]
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