Licinius, unfortunately

Discussion in 'Ancient Coins' started by dougsmit, Mar 20, 2016.

  1. dougsmit

    dougsmit Member

    My new coin is not new to you because its previous owner posted it here before we traded. I hope he is happy with the denarius and two bronzes he got. Why I wanted this coins is the sort of thing that makes my collection different than most and I encourage you to find coins that fit your collecting personality as well. I am not as impressed by grade as by interesting footnotes. This coin is not bad condition but its polished surfaces make photography difficult.

    rx4375fd1967.jpg

    Licinius I Cyzicus mint (SMK) AE2 RIC 6 (vol. VII page 644) officina 3 (III), 316-317 AD

    What made me want this coin is not what it is but what it is not but could have been. This issue was done in the name of Constantine and Licinius with Constantine's coins being more rare (yes I want one). The issue also included rare coins in the name of Valerius Valens (not the guy from RIC vol. IX) who Licinius appointed co-Augustus when he was fighting ith Constantine and had executed when they made peace. Constantine would have executed Licinius and saved himself going through all this again but for the fact that Licinius was married to Constantine's half sister who interceded on her husband's behalf. Her coins, like those of Valens, are extremely rare but I do find interest in that Raz pointed out correctly in ERIC I that they were active in the region then producing many new finds so it would be quite possible for a bagful to be found. Keep looking guys.

    This issue is of interest to me not because it was Licinius (I have other coins of his) but because it was made at a time the mint was working on making the rare coins of Valens which I will never own. Because of the bad blood between them, coins of this issue of Constantine are also much more rare but I might get one of those by accident because almost no one cares about detail of his issues (or, even less, Licinius'). Most dealers would figure out that they had a coin of Valens so an accidental find there is less likely. Looking at photos of the three, I'd say the same portrait was used for all three. This probably means (my guess) that the cutter at Cyzicus had no idea what the out of town guys looked like and used the Licinius portrait on all three. This issue is also odd in the mintmark is SKM rather than the expected SMK (Sacred Money Kyzikos). This is not an error since all the dies of the issue use this spelling.

    I like coins of Constantine struck at mints controlled by Licinius or any other 'evidence' of the wars between them. This coin is not one but simply the Licinius struck when the rare ones were being made by the other shops in the mint. After Valens died, Constantine and Licinius solved the question of succession question by appointing their sons as Caesar. Constantine has an able, older boy name Crispus. Licinius II was very young and hardly a danger not to mention being Constantine's sister's son. Constantine also got a bonus pick of his young son Contantine II. Winning the war put him in a good place to dictate terms. Because Licinius II was no help in war, the next time Licinius I got frisky he appointed a co-Augustus named Martinian who really should have known what happened to Valens would happen to him. It did and his coins are rare as well so I don't have one either.

    Feel free to post your coins of Valens (the RIC VII one), Constantia or Martinian. :rolleyes: ...or whatever you will. This would also be a good place to post any coin you have from an issue that also produced coins for the rare ones.
     
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  3. stevex6

    stevex6 Random Mayhem

    Great new addition, Mentor ...

    => it kinda looks like Licinius is wearing a monicle like Colonel Clink


    ... sadly, I don't think that I have any of the coins that you're summoning?
     
    Last edited: Mar 21, 2016
  4. Bing

    Bing Illegitimi non carborundum Supporter

    Great new addition Doug.

    Licinius I 3.jpg
     
  5. H8_modern

    H8_modern Attracted to small round-ish art

    Thanks for the book-learnin I'm too lazy to search for on my own but love to read about. I guess I need to pay closer attention to the later issues.

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
     
  6. panzerman

    panzerman Well-Known Member

    Nice portrait of Licinius! Some 5 years ago, I narrowly missed winning one fom Ars Classica auction. I was heartbroken....
     
  7. dougsmit

    dougsmit Member

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  8. stevex6

    stevex6 Random Mayhem

    Doug, I don't think this is the exact type you're asking to see, but just in case I thought that I'd better toss-in my only Licinius example (better safe, than sorry) ... $44 (delivered)

    Licinius I, Æ Follis
    A.D. 308-324
    Heraclea A.D. 313
    Diameter: 20 mm
    Weight: 3.29 grams
    Obverse: IMP C VAL LICIN LICINIVS P F AVG, laureate head of Licinius I right
    Reverese: IOVI CONSER-VATORI AVGG, Jupiter standing facing, head left, holding Victory on globe, and scepter; at feet to left, eagle standing left, head right, holding wreath in beak; Δ//SMHT
    Reference: RIC 73


    Licinius I.jpg

    *ooops* ... apparently it needed to be from Cyzicus to be considered worthy (my lousy Heraclea example is a bit of a thread-disappointment)

    :oops:

    ... again, that's a sweet OP-addition (congrats, Mentor)
     
    Last edited: Mar 21, 2016
  9. Topcat7

    Topcat7 Still Learning

    Mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.
    I just catalogued one of my purchases as:-
    LICINIUS I Follis
    Obv: IMP LIC LICINIVS PF AVG, Laureate, draped and cuirassed bust right.
    Rev: IOVI CONS_ERVATORI, Jupiter standing facing with head left, chlamys hanging from left shoulder, holding Victory on Globe and leaning on a sceptre. Eagle with wreath left.'A' in right field.
    SIS in ex.
    RIC VI Siscia 230a var. Scarce

    @>H8_Modern . . . . Now I can see that the Reverse legend is not IOVI CONSERVATORI AVGG, but . . . . . interesting ?
    (3) LICINIUS I RIC VI Siscia 230a.jpg
     
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  10. Mikey Zee

    Mikey Zee Delenda Est Carthago

    Terrific information as always Doug----You always arouse my interest in 'varieties' that I never knew existed, or hadn't given much thought to....

    Unfortunately, I also lack the type you refer to.
     
  11. zumbly

    zumbly Ha'ina 'ia mai ana ka puana

    TC, this is RIC VII Siscia 8. RIC VI Siscia 230a is a different issue, with a different bust type and Jupiter holding a thunderbolt instead of Victory. Both are rated scarce in RIC, but if you do a search for Licinius coins with Jupiter holding a thunderbolt across all mints in Vcoins, you'll only find a handful. On the other hand, the ones with Victory turn up in the hundreds.
     
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  12. dougsmit

    dougsmit Member

    I'm sure most missed the point of this thread. Licinius issued millions of coins of thousands of issues from a dozen mints each of which changed things as they saw fit. Rarity ratings in RIC or what shows up online in sales may or may not reflect exactly what exists since all of one particular variety may have been found in one hoard and may have all gone to museums or may have all been sold years ago and now reside in collections rather than dealer stocks. If you read RIC, you see how these issues interrelated with each other but most people just want a catalog number and do not really care what factors contributed to that listing.

    Today I ordered a coin of Constantine the Great that was from an issue that included a type for Martinian. I may post it when it comes (if it comes since it is from overseas and my luck has been bad there) but most people will just see a vf coin no different than a hundred others. I pointed out that I look for different things on coins. This one has 'nice' style which is where it would get any desirability but most still would rather have a mint state common variety.
     
  13. 7Calbrey

    7Calbrey Well-Known Member

    Hi. These 4 coins are listed RIC VII. The first belongs to Crispus and the 3 others belong to Licinius I. Hope they do.. CrispusArles.jpg CrisMarsRIC 7   163  R4.jpg Lic O Ric 7.jpg Lic R ANT                17 S.jpg Licin I  Ant      RIC VII-8.jpg Licin1 Rev       Delta- R2.jpg Licins O R1     Ric7- 28.jpg Licins R Alex   SMALA.jpg
     
  14. Topcat7

    Topcat7 Still Learning

    :banghead:
     
    Last edited: Mar 21, 2016
  15. Topcat7

    Topcat7 Still Learning

    Here is the reference that I took from Wildwinds:

    Licinius I AE Follis.
    Obv: IMP LIC LICINIVS PF AVG, laureate, draped, cuirassed bust right
    Rev: IOVI CONS-ERVATORI, Jupiter standing facing with head left, chlamys
    hanging from left shoulder, holding Victory on globe and leaning on sceptre,
    eagle with wreath left.
    Mintmark: SIS. Right field: Delta.

    RIC VI Siscia 230a, rated scarce

    Contributed by Dane for George Clegg (biggyg2), August, 2006.
    _siscia_RIC_VI_230a.jpg
    Looks like my coin to me (except mine has an 'A' where the Wildwinds coin has a delta.) Not a Thunderbolt in sight. Is Wildwinds wrong?
     
    Last edited: Mar 21, 2016
  16. Topcat7

    Topcat7 Still Learning

    However, here is the reference (from Wildwinds) that you pointed me to, and you are right.
    (Confusing?)

    Licinius I, 313-315 AD Follis
    IMP LIC LICINIVS PF AVG, laureate head right
    IOVI CONS-ERVATORI, Jupiter standing left, chlamys across left shoulder, holding Victory on globe and leaning on sceptre, eagle with wreath left
    Right field: A
    Mintmark: SIS
    RIC VII Siscia 8 var (rev. legend break), rated scarce
    Courtesy of TimeLine Auctions (www.timelineauctions.com), Apr, 2013
    _siscia_RIC_vII_008v_A.jpg

    At least this one has an 'A' where it should be.
    Thanks, Zumbly.
     
    Last edited: Mar 21, 2016
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  17. zumbly

    zumbly Ha'ina 'ia mai ana ka puana

    Yes, unfortunately the Wildwinds listing is wrong.
     
  18. Pishpash

    Pishpash Well-Known Member

    Tell Dane and she will correct it.
     
  19. Valentinian

    Valentinian Well-Known Member

    How about this one? Do you recognize what it could have been?

    DioGRPeagle.JPG
    It was issued at Alexandria (ALE) by Domitius Domitianus. The eagle is distinctive. Too bad the legend has "DIOCLETIANVS" instead of the name of DD on the rare follis I don't have (This type with the eagle was also issued for Maximianus).
     
  20. YOC

    YOC Well-Known Member

    Doug, you had me seeking out a bag of coins I bought years ago earlier today....
    I had forgotten I even had them until I saw your thread.
    I am sure those with enough knowledge could spot if there are any rarities in there .... I sure as hell cannot.
    Im glad I found them.... had a nice hour handling them. All are almost fully silvered and in pretty good nick.
    MARCH 2016 2 001.JPG MARCH 2016 2 014.JPG MARCH 2016 2 015.JPG
    a good example of my hoarding tendencies .... I need help!!
     

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  21. zumbly

    zumbly Ha'ina 'ia mai ana ka puana

    My Licinius from Cyzicus is a $10 example from the days the mint also struck coins of Martinian. I'm always optimistic about about finding a V Valens or Martinian that had gone unspotted in a big pile of these common coins, even one in junky condition. Of course, odds are that it'd just be another junky Licinius...

    upload_2016-3-22_16-1-40.png
     
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