Liberty Dollars

And there you have it. 2000 years of using wampum for currency and the economy of North America was in the stone age compared to Europe and Asia which used gold and [primarily] silver. Thanks for that example. It helped make my point.

I know you can't be convinced. My comments are meant for others so they get both sides of the money story.

 

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There you have it. Wampum! Why didn't I think of that? I mean why are we missing gold and silver coinage when we could be using strings of shells as a means of exchange. I say we petition the government to put us back on the Wampum standard. We could even eliminate the cumbersome need for purses and wallets by just carrying the beads around our neck!

 

That is the problem. Your statments are fanatical and not based on any provable economic or historical theory. Anyone who wants to understand monetary policy and economic history is pointed to the nearest library to read any of the important works on this topic. They can also take several years of economics and become grounded in it at a local university. What your presenting is neither historically accurate nor economically valid.

If there are two sides of any view of money, neither are what your proposing. Your making unsubstantiated and inaccurate statements, at times purposefully misleading, with an occasional troll thrown in. Don't do it.

Ruben

 

http://www.brooklynonline.com/history/bankoff.html
http://www.wampumworks.com/history2.html
http://www.coins.nd.edu/ColCoin/ColCoinIntros/Wampum.intro.html

 

For what possible reason would you tell someone to learn about the Federal Reserve System and the bank itself from a forum like Cointalk, but not as good really rather from legitamite sources like, lets say: hmm the Fed itself

http://www.newyorkfed.org/

http://www.federalreserve.gov/general.htm

http://www.stls.frb.org/publications/pleng/default.html


If you want to learn about money - try this
http://wfhummel.cnchost.com/index.html
I don't know who this guy is, but he is brillent and generous. Go and learn something.

Ruben

 

Wampum is as valid a form of currency and anything else ever devised and does better than silver and gold. We never had to fix the price of wampun to maintain economic growth. It was rare enough to use as currency, while plenitful enough to facilitate weath building and trade, while not capable of being contefited easily. Making fun of its usage is not showing a great deal of understanding of money, or a particular great depth knowedge of economics or history.

As for the Europeans, it wasn't gold that made their civilization superior. Gun Powder, maybe. In fact, the retarded search for gold starved the colonies which were only saved by the relentless numbers of economically deprived white folks who were so desperate to leave the economically superior european civilization that they risked starving to death to escape its clutches. and then they succeeded in staving to death in ***great*** numbers.


Ruben

 

GIM is a great website for learning about the Federal Reserve, how our nation's banking system has changed, and why people hoard and value gold/silver coin and bullion. You should register there mrbrklyn. There are many people that post there with a wealth of knowledge to share. You might find some of it interesting. You might be surprised how many Cointalk members are also GIM members. I take it you're not a Libertarian?

 

Would you take my check

Hey I'm getting a good idea. I think I'll start a Wampum collection and then we can add a Wampum section to Coin Talk! We can start a whole new craze and this is your chance to get in on the ground floor! .. and I'm not entirely joking here! 800 year old Wampum is rare.

Ruben

 

Great idea, just don't tell SGS because I know they'll want to start slabbing Wampum next. And there's nothing worse than overgraded Wampum!

 

Btw GDJMSP,

There was no scorn or derision intended in my previous reply. I just thought mrbrklyn citing Wampum to illustrate his point was funny. What can I say, I think Wampum is funny.

 

So what you are saying, Ruben, is that the founding fathers of this country were stupid and ignorant for putting into the Constitution of this nation the requirement that all money be based on s specific weight of gold and/or silver??? The "REAL currency" you speak of is currently becoming more worthless on a daily basis (it's called inflation) and the cause of that is your precious PRIVATELY OWNED Federal Reserve is printing money at a hyperbolically increasing rate, creating 'money' out of thin air with no basis in the US economy or any other world economy. Give me precious metals (or Wamput) over worthless paper ANY day!

BTW The indians didn't "make" Wampum, they just collected the darn shells. And, they certainly weren't supplying it to ALL of North America.

 

Umm - it is not a good site to learn about banking. Its a place to be brainwahsed perhaps by fanatics and crackpots. It would be like learning about Judiasm from http://www.jewsforjesus.org or getting health information from misc.health.alternative.

Try this one instead.

http://www.stern.nyu.edu/

I wouldn't persist in being so arrogant about any knowledge of my political views. I'm not shackled by any labels and its irrelavent to economc theory OR historical facts.


Ruben

 

Or virtual money... which is almost everything these days.

I've been in the workforce since 1977 and I've never been paid in cash. For years, it was a check - "virtual money". Now, it's REALLY virtual money - it just shows up in my checking account, electronically wired from my employer.

There was a time not so long ago when such things weren't accepted. This goes back to GDJMSP's point about acceptance, which is still perfectly valid today.

Acceptance is everything. If a society says shells are valid and gold isn't, well that's what rules. For a while we didn't accept certain types of virtual money, now we do.

Checks, credit cards, real estate closings where numbers fly all over the place, stock investments - all virtual money.

It would be interesting to know what portion of our nation's total transactions do not involve coin or currency of any kind, but use virtual money.

I bet it's 95% virtual.

 

GDJMSP, you are correct that the argument can't be "won." But there are a few things that can be noted. Gold and silver have many industrial uses, and cannot be considered 'worthless' except by primative societies with absolutely no industrial capability. Also, money doesn't have only one purpose. It has multiple purposes. It is a medium of exchange, store of value, and unit of account. Gold and silver have performed all three functions at various times and places. Paper money can really only perform the first unless you have saints in charge of the paper money production. Your example is the exchange example. I can't think of a single example of a historical situation where silver and gold have become worthless. They transport well over time and space. But there are many examples of paper currency becoming worthless including France around the turn of the 19th century, Germany in the 20's, Zimbabwe today, Continentals and Confederate currency in our own history, and the list goes on. Obviously, paper money can be used to operate an economy, and we are living proof of it. But so can silver and gold, but without the "wipe out potential."

Ruben, should anyone be surprised that the Federal Reserve websites promote their own 'product' as best? The cigarette makers defended their product, nearly to the death, and so will the Fed. Like most things, there are at least two, and sometimes more sides to every story. There are some pretty sharp minds, past and present, who didn't think a central bank and fiat currency were necessary. Technically, it isn't even constitutional.

 

Maybe... maybe not.

Checks are not nearly as universal an instrument as Benjamins ! Some folks won't take checks, which gets back to the perception / acceptance issue.

Heck... I was in Russia a few years ago and US $20 Andy Jacksons were preferred to local rubles. Acceptance is everything.

 

I'm truly no expert on thiese things... but I thought one of the many problems with silver and gold is there simply isn't enough of it to keep up with an economy as big and fast as ours.

 

That's about the beginning of the problem.

 

Ummm no. Money is strictly for exchange. You DON'T want people preserving their wealth in money unless you want mass starvation. Gold and Sliver monetary standards are like Comunism, they only work in failed economomies and states.

You missed that 1200 years of Native American Indian Civilization?

Actually, Gold and Silver CAN'T. Its actually physically impossible even if every microgram of slver and gold was monetorized. Do yah REALLY think that the people of Germany between the wars would have staved less if they had Gold Currency? If you do, then I present that as more evidence of your fanatical illogical ranting about gold standards.
Do you really think Germany and today Zimbawee that weath would be retained be a gold standard. Your off your rocker.

I know that it needs to be repeated every few days on this forum but GOVERNMENT AGENCIES ARE NOT BUSINESSES AND DON'T MAKE PROFITS. This statement by you is a blatent lie. Do you really think the Federal Reserve gives a darn if you like federal reserve noes or not? Do you really think they need to sell dollars or have an interest in their continued existence as an organization. The people who run the Fed and work for the Fed are BEAUCRATS. They could care less if the fed seized to exist today as long as the economy doesn't crash.

What ever issues suround fiat currency, you haven't presented any worth examining or discussing. You've just thrown around a bunch of iniendo and misinformation.


Ruben

 

I still remember when I bought my first Morgan as a kid...yes it was a 1921

Cost? 4 Brass buttons off of a Navy Pea Coat.

If brass can be used for purchase in the right establishment. why not anything else?

Speaking of which, anyone have an 1895 Proof Morgan they'd be willing sell me for set of brass Army Engineer Buttons? just kidding... Way too dang serious in this conversation anymore.........