Featured Let's talk about the Netherlands gold ducats

Discussion in 'World Coins' started by goldducat, Nov 24, 2015.

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  1. chrisild

    chrisild Coin Collector

    Still a long tradition. :) Sure, nobody needs gold coins as means of payment, but I like the idea that the Dutch ducats are still issued. Whether the modern ones should be called "coins", oh well ... they are not legal tender, but the specifications have not changed for a long time. Hope they will survive the current mint crisis.

    As for the pronunciation, the Latin word ducatus (from the inscriptions on the first pieces of that kind) was AFAIK pronounced with a stressed middle syllable (-kah-). Hence dukaat in Dutch, or Dukaten (pl) in German, with the same emphasis ...

    Christian
     
    chrisild, Nov 30, 2015
    #21 + Quote Reply
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  3. GDJMSP

    GDJMSP Numismatist Moderator

    Oh dear lord ! Don't tell me that the "monster" I created long ago has turned into a purist ! :D
     
    GDJMSP, Nov 30, 2015
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  4. kevin McGonigal

    kevin McGonigal Well-Known Member

    in the early history of the newly independent US certain gold and silver coins were given legal tender status and their value compared to the US dollar was established by federal law. Was the ducat one of these coins? If so it would seem that they must have had considerable circulation in the American Colonies and then in the states after independence.
     
    kevin McGonigal, Nov 30, 2015
    #23 + Quote Reply
  5. swamp yankee

    swamp yankee Well-Known Member

    Magnifico! Congrats on this find,wonderful piece.....
     
    swamp yankee, Nov 30, 2015
    #24 + Quote Reply
  6. goldducat

    goldducat Active Member

    In Dutch it is dukaat (dew-khat) indeed.
     
    goldducat, Dec 1, 2015
    #25 + Quote Reply
  7. goldducat

    goldducat Active Member

    Well, yeah! ;) On the other hand I am happy they are still minting gold single and double ducats in the Royal Mint in Utrecht. This way it is the only type of coin with such a long tradition, which is also currently being minted!
     
    goldducat, Dec 1, 2015
    #26 + Quote Reply
  8. goldducat

    goldducat Active Member

    Congrats to the guy who bought this piece :) The coin was bought by the great collector from Germany.
     
    goldducat, Dec 1, 2015
    #27 + Quote Reply
  9. goldducat

    goldducat Active Member

    Now I will show you another unusual gold ducat from The Netherlands. In the recent Heritage Auctions Europe, former MPO, Auction 48 (November 26, 2015), a rare undated Gronsveld ducat was available for bidding (Lot 710). Starting price was 4,000 EUR.

    A copy offered for sale was sold previously in Laurens Schulman auction 26 (November 19, 2001) for 9,000 Dutch guilders, means about 3,591 USD.

    The recent sale of this type was in November 2000 in Sotheby’s London Auction 571, Lot 627 (coin sold for 3,520 GBP = 5,849 EUR = $5,012, incl. Buyer’s Premium fee). Next to Joh. W. Stephanik copy, sold in 1907 by Frederik Muller & Cie, Sotheby’s ducat was the finest known of this type.

    Ducats of this type were minted under reign of Joost (aka Judocus) Maximiliaan van Bronckhorst (1617-1662). This date is known in two types: with a large date and with a small date.

    The coin was withdrawn from the auction.

    [​IMG]
    Gronsveld 1642 ducat with a small date
    (source: www.mpoauctions.com)
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 1, 2015
    goldducat, Dec 1, 2015
    #28 + Quote Reply
    chrsmat71 and chrisild like this.
  10. dangolf1890

    dangolf1890 Junior Member

    What are common date examples worth in EF-AU condition?
     
    dangolf1890, Dec 7, 2015
    #29 + Quote Reply
  11. goldducat

    goldducat Active Member

    I'd say single ducats from 16th and 17th century: around $700-800 when it it really XF at least. Uncirculated specimens are sold for more than $1,000, based on the auctions results.

    Double ducats - double these prices.

    Common ducats from the 18th century are usually cheaper by 20% or more, than those from 17th century.

    Ducats minted after 1816 - max. price is 2x melt value for XF/AU (for common dates).

    This is my opinion about prices currently.
     
    Last edited: Dec 7, 2015
    goldducat, Dec 7, 2015
    #30 + Quote Reply
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  12. dangolf1890

    dangolf1890 Junior Member

    Picked my first one up today. Without telling you what I paid for it, what do you think a coin like this is worth?
    3650476.jpg
     
    Last edited: Dec 16, 2015
    dangolf1890, Dec 16, 2015
    #31 + Quote Reply
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  13. GDJMSP

    GDJMSP Numismatist Moderator

    $350-$400.
     
    GDJMSP, Dec 17, 2015
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  14. princeofwaldo

    princeofwaldo Grateful To Be eX-I/T!

    The NYINC sale for Stack's went online last night, literally hundreds of Dutch gold Ducats from every province, some of them in group lots with 20 coins etc.
     
    princeofwaldo, Dec 17, 2015
    #33 + Quote Reply
  15. dangolf1890

    dangolf1890 Junior Member

    Damn I got sort of ripped off...
     
    dangolf1890, Dec 17, 2015
    #34 + Quote Reply
  16. GDJMSP

    GDJMSP Numismatist Moderator

    Apparently you paid more than that. Well, you're certainly not the only person to have ever done that.

    For the future, before buying use these two resources -

    http://www.coinarchives.com

    http://www.acsearch.info

    You can register for free and use them to look up realized auction prices. That will give you a much better idea of what a given coin is worth. Just keep in mind, the grade of the coin matters, and the grade estimated by the seller, or even on the slab when the coin is graded, is not always accurate. Though sometimes it is. And, that there is no set price for any given coin in any given grade. Instead there is a price range for each and every grade, and sometimes that price range can be rather large.

    Then there is the issue of varieties, and there are many for some ducats, and scarcity (rarity rating). And to get those, well there's really only 1 person who can give you those, the guy who started this thread. For some ducats, I could help, but he's the only one who knows them all. So far anyway. Once the book is completely finished, for the very first time everyone who owns it will have access to the same knowledge ;)
     
    GDJMSP, Dec 18, 2015
    #35 + Quote Reply
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  17. dangolf1890

    dangolf1890 Junior Member

    Well I paid around $425. I thought it would be worth $600-$700 though. Just looked at the Stacks NYINC auction and can't believe the estimate for an 18 VF-EF ducats (mixed dates) has an estimate around $125 per coin. Crazy.
     
    dangolf1890, Dec 18, 2015
    #36 + Quote Reply
  18. GDJMSP

    GDJMSP Numismatist Moderator

    Then you didn't do bad.

    Care to explain why ?

    No it's not crazy, it's quite intentional. And it is done for a reason.

    Basic rule, don't ever pay any attention to estimates given in auctions. Estimates are pretty much always quite low, often only a fraction of what the auction house knows the coin is likely to bring. The reason for this is pretty simple - low estimates bring more bids. And more bids results in a higher realized price in the end. Auction houses know and understand only too well how human nature works.

    Get a guy thinking he can get a bargain and he'll bid on it, just in case if for no other reason. They also know that once a bid is made, even a low bid, as soon as a higher one comes in the low bidder is going to bid again because he wants to win. Get 2 people doing this, let alone 3 or 4, and you have a bidding war. That's when the auction house starts rubbing their hands together with a smile on their face.

    Auction houses have typically been in business for many years. Their business is knowing how to get the most out of what they offer for sale. Does anyone really think they could have remained in business for all those years if they weren't really good at doing that ?

    Now I'm not maligning auction houses, I'm merely telling you that they are very good at what they do. But that is the nature of business, you have to be good at what you do or you won't stay in business.

    Your job, as a buyer, is to be good at what you do. And the first rule of being good at what you do is to first know what you are doing. And that means you have to know more about the coins than the other folks bidding on them. Otherwise you'll end up paying too much. Do that, and you'll never go wrong.
     
    GDJMSP, Dec 19, 2015
    #37 + Quote Reply
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  19. dangolf1890

    dangolf1890 Junior Member


    Thanks for the reply. I thought 16th century ducats were slightly more valuable. Maybe not $700 but $500-$600. Anyhow doesnt really matter. Just going to enjoy the coin.
     
    dangolf1890, Dec 19, 2015
    #38 + Quote Reply
  20. giladzuc

    giladzuc Senior Member

    A ZEELAND DUCAT FROM 1753 , COUNTERMARKED WITH جاو "JAWA" IN MALAY WRITTEN IN "TULISAN JAWI" , WHICH IS AN ARABIC SCRIPT WITH 6 ADDITIONAL LETTERS. ISSUED BY THE DUTCH EAST INDIA COMPANY IN WHAT IS PRESENT DAY INDONESIA.
     

    Attached Files:

    giladzuc, Dec 22, 2015
    #39 + Quote Reply
  21. pepiak

    pepiak New Member

    Hi sirs,
    I have two Dutch ducats. Are there any Russian imitation? dutchav.jpg dutchre.jpg
     
    pepiak, Jan 4, 2016
    #40 + Quote Reply
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