Let's start a discussion for the weekend : What is a scratch?

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I'll need to read what's been said and reply later. Four pages indicates a great discussion.

Once we define the term in a universal sense (INTO A SURFACE) then we can add the words to link it to numismatics (of a numismatic item for example).

 

I like the "sliding contact under pressure" phrase. I'll propose: "A form of post mint damage characterized by a linear or curvilinear mark into the surface of the coin, caused by sliding contact with an object under pressure, visible to the unaided eye."

 

I THINK WE ARE VERY CLOSE but not finished. Thanks to all for expanding my original thoughts. Now for some comments to refine our thinking even more.

GDJMSP, posted: "And therein lies the problem. Of course you knew that which is why you did this.

That said I can't blame ya for doing it because I write about the same kind of thing all the time. Definitions - it seems everybody has their own. [Yes, big problem and IMO, both TPGS definitions in this thread are EXTREMELY POOR - especially this little ignorant fart: 'A detracting line that is more severe than a hairline.' from the numismatic scholars at PCGS. The CT members posting have demonstrated much more knowledge! I guess those guys have a different definition for roller marks and adjustment marks. ] And it doesn't really matter what the word or subject is, that still holds true as evidenced by what has been posted so far in this thread. Another example would this, The PCGS definition, taken direct from their website - https://www.pcgs.com/lingo/s

scratch
A detracting line that is more severe than a hairline. The size of a coin determines the point at which a line ceases to be viewed as a hairline and instead is regarded a scratch; the larger the coin, the greater the tolerance.

The first short sentence of that is the definition, the rest are merely qualifiers. And as I'm reasonably certain you will, I too find it lacking. [Yes lacking, except I prefer an IGNORANT DISSERVICE to all of numismatics. And I sincerely hope my comment makes it on to their coin forum so that they can improve it with just a few seconds of thought] Now I'm not saying that I disagree with your qualifiers for a definition, to the contrary, I do agree. But I said it is a problem because of the limitations such qualifiers inflict on the task at hand.

Given all of that, using bits and pieces what has been said so far and combining them I do think we can arrive at suitable definition. But - there is one crucial point, that I believe must be included in the definition that no one has yet mentioned and rather than state it, I want to see if anyone else can come up with what that point is."


GDJMSP, continued: "Well, the crucial point I was thinking of has been mentioned a couple of times now on page 2, (haven't gotten to page 3 yet). The term I was thinking of is "post strike", in my opinion, that has to be in there somewhere. Why? [The word 'COIN' in the numismatic definition covers this] A couple of reasons, one of which would be because it defines the time frame. [When, where, and how are not important for the definition. They describe the scratch just as its degree of severity.] In other words it can occur can any point in the coin's life after it leaves the dies. And reason 2 would be because it eliminates planchet scratches which are fairly common even though only a few are visible post strike. But some are so it needs to be included."

ksparrow, posted: "I like ToughCoins definition, but would add "well defined" and "visible to the naked eye". These two suggestion do not a definition make.

Jaelus, posted: "We all seem to agree that a hairline is a type of scratch, so then hairlines should be included in the definition. [Nope, the severity of the scratch does not define it] It is a completely separate point to define how the severity of a scratch (including hairlines) affects or does not affect the grade when evaluating a coin. [absolutely true and grade, location, severity, how made, when made DO NOT belong in this discussion. It will derail my search for a precise definition. How we consider these things will make an excellent discussion later.]

For example, certainly there are some lower grade coins that would grade with a minor scratch, depending on the severity, location, originality, etc. Also hairlines aren't evaluated the same way depending on the coin's finish. You don't adjust the definition of scratch to exclude these types of occurrences, that is a separate point.

In other words a scratch doesn't magically transform into something else for those instances where it doesn't render a coin details. It's just being handled via the grading process. Hairlines are [ONE TYPE] scratches. Period. Don't overthink it."

"Publius2, posted: "That is why I was working toward a dimensionless geometric definition with L/D ratio calculations. Not that that is intended to be the end-all of the conversation since this is very interesting.

BTW, I don't think @Insider asked anything about the grading aspect when he posed the question. I think talking about grading distracts from his original intention.

I have two quibbles with this definition: First, I don't think high pressure is a requirement [TRUE] (think staple scratch) and cannot be determined after the fact in any event. Secondly, while raised edges are a typical characteristic of a scratch, they are not universally in evidence. So, any criteria that does not exist at all times cannot be a fundamental characteristic of the phenomenon." TRUE, and we can toss out raised up edges in our definition specifically because of hairlines! We don't examine coins at 200X where a virtually invisible hairline looks like a furrow in a plowed cornfield.

ToughCOINS, posted "Staple scratches typically are produced by low forces on a minuscule surface area, resulting in an exceedingly high pressure, compared to rubbing a coin as hard as one can between thumb and forefinger, for example.
Even microscopic hairlines exhibit the raised edges I described."

See above.

So far, does both curvilinear and linear need to be in the definition? I think "Mechanically" does. A "Sliding" motion seems to be universal with scratches. Yes? No? "Surface" covers everything and adding "coin" will apply our definition to numismatics. However, forget coins and let's define a "scratch."

 

If we forget coins then a scratch can be defined as a minor injury to the skin or exterior covering. Also, Hardees used to advertise that their biscuits were made from scratch. But that's another topic.

 

Yeah, scratch golf, etc. Let's derail this thread.

 

Post-mint fissure in coin's surface.

 

differential, posted: Post-mint fissure in coin's surface.

Thanks for the suggestion. I forgot about this thread. I posted it to get ideas for a column. IMO, the word "fissure" is better applied to a woman's chest. look it up.

 

I know it when I see it, and that is the only description I need or use, Tomaatoe tomato.

 

A fissue is a void in the planchet, Either missing from the rim or sometimes a blow hole.

 

Where are you going with this?
I looked it up and got this;
fis·sure| ˈfiSHər | nouna long, narrow opening or line of breakage made by cracking or splitting, especially in rock or earth.
• mainly Anatomy a long narrow opening in the form of a crack or groove, e.g., any of the spaces separating convolutions of the brain.
• a state of incompatibility or disagreement: the fissure between private sector business and the newly expanding public sector. verb [with object] split or crack (something) to form a long, narrow opening: the dry years had cracked and fissured the cliffs. ORIGIN late Middle English: from Old French, or from Latin fissura, from findere ‘to split’.

Then I google searched it and got this;
Overview. An anal fissure is a small tear in the thin, moist tissue (mucosa) that lines the anus. An anal fissure may occur when you pass hard or large stools during a bowel movement. Anal fissures typically cause pain and bleeding with bowel movements.

 

And then comes the fistula, the point when the coin doctors start working.

 

https://www.error-ref.com/?s=Fissure

 

Well, cheap boob job, substituting sand and gravel. It happens.

I know stuff.

Don't Smith me. I am old.

 

The Random House Dictionary defines a Fissure this way: A narrow opening produced by cleavage.

Now, all of you should know that a word can have several different meanings. In any case a scratch is NOT A FISSURE by any stretch of the imagination.

https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/1...-45ee-88b5-c25cedbd740c_360x.png?v=1571439575


While I'd rather post an image of the "fissure" I referred to in my original post this is another example.

 

Dynoking, posted: "Where are you going with this?"

I can ask you the same question.

"I looked it up and got this;
fis·sure| ˈfiSHər | nouna long, narrow opening or line of breakage made by cracking or splitting, especially in rock or earth.
• mainly Anatomy a long narrow opening in the form of a crack or groove, e.g., any of the spaces separating convolutions of the brain.
• a state of incompatibility or disagreement: the fissure between private sector business and the newly expanding public sector. verb [with object] split or crack (something) to form a long, narrow opening: the dry years had cracked and fissured the cliffs. ORIGIN late Middle English: from Old French, or from Latin fissura, from findere ‘to split’.

Then I google searched it and got this;
Overview. An anal fissure is a small tear in the thin, moist tissue (mucosa) that lines the anus. An anal fissure may occur when you pass hard or large stools during a bowel movement. Anal fissures typically cause pain and bleeding with bowel movements."


Good work!
Unfortunately, nothing you have found for "fissure" describes a SCRATCH! Thanks, but it would have been more helpful to me if you had focused on the word "scratch."

 

Ok, before this goes off the rails I was kidding around. You said "fissure" "look it up." So I did. I use Mac. It has a function of being able to highlight any word, then double click and you have a chose of look up in dictionary or search with google. I selected dictionary and found the first set of definitions. No biggie. Then it was lets see what the internet has to say and you all read the rest. I didn't pick that out of multiple choices. Thats was it! Multiple entries of anal fissure. Nothing else. In disbelief I opened google myself typed in fissure and again and yet again. (2X) Nothing but anal fissure. I knew that was not what you were inferring, but I thought hey lets have some fun with this. Don't sue me.

 

Dynoking, posted: "Where are you going with this?"

You asked a question. I answered to keep the thread on track and focused on "scratch." No hard feelings. I guess you forgot to laugh.

 

All I know is this a typical male hide what we really mean conversation, and all the males know we are talking about boobies. Some can be seen, some can not, but we all want to scratch them. It produces a hard feeling.

Hi, Insider!!
#7, here.

Don't Smith me.

 

Belly shaking chuckles, thanks

PS
Who is Smith?