Let's start a discussion for the weekend : What is a scratch?

Discussion in 'US Coins Forum' started by Insider, Nov 13, 2021.

  1. wxcoin

    wxcoin Getting no respect since I was a baby

    I would add that a "small scratch" on a large coin such as a Morgan dollar would be a "large scratch" on a small coin such as a dime. So, everything depends on perspective; the Morgan with a small scratch could be straight graded while the dime details graded.
     
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  3. ksparrow

    ksparrow Coin Hoarder Supporter

    I believe that's important, and should be the subject of a thread about scratches and "gradability." We're still trying to arrive at a definition of "scratch." baby steps.
     
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  4. Publius2

    Publius2 Well-Known Member

    That is why I was working toward a dimensionless geometric definition with L/D ratio calculations. Not that that is intended to be the end-all of the conversation since this is very interesting.

    BTW, I don't think @Insider asked anything about the grading aspect when he posed the question. I think talking about grading distracts from his original intention.

    I have two quibbles with this definition: First, I don't think high pressure is a requirement (think staple scratch) and cannot be determined after the fact in any event. Secondly, while raised edges are a typical characteristic of a scratch, they are not universally in evidence. So, any criteria that does not exist at all times cannot be a fundamental characteristic of the phenomenon.
     
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  5. ToughCOINS

    ToughCOINS Dealer Member Moderator

    Staple scratches typically are produced by low forces on a minuscule surface area, resulting in an exceedingly high pressure, compared to rubbing a coin as hard as one can between thumb and forefinger, for example.

    Even microscopic hairlines exhibit the raised edges I described.
     
    Last edited: Nov 14, 2021
  6. Razz

    Razz Critical Thinker

    I think we can all agree that a scratch is an incuse linear, or curvilinear, line on an object.

    That is about as simple as I can make a definition.
     
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  7. Razz

    Razz Critical Thinker

    I added the not part of the original design or manufacture process of the object to differentiate between incuse lines that are part of the original design or made during the manufacturing of the object.
     
  8. chascat

    chascat Well-Known Member

    I think a scratch is larger than a hairline, but smaller than a gouge...as said earlier the size of the coin determines the distraction from the scratch, and is purely objective of the grader. The location of the scratch is also very important.
     
  9. Publius2

    Publius2 Well-Known Member

    I am not disagreeing with you. I concur that many, maybe most, scratches and hairlines exhibit raised edges. But a scratch that occurs early in a coin's circulation life can have its edges worn down to the point where the raised portions no longer exist. I'm just saying that any condition that is not a universal criteria is secondary to the definition. I am thinking in terms of "first principles" i.e. what is characteristic of all scratches. If you can think of or demonstrate an exception, then it is a secondary characteristic.
     
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  10. ToughCOINS

    ToughCOINS Dealer Member Moderator

    In an effort to make the definition shorter and more universally applicable to all subjects, here's another try:

    A scratch, caused by sliding contact under pressure, is a plowed groove in the surface of an object, the displaced material from which rises to either side of the groove.
    .
     
    Last edited: Nov 14, 2021
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  11. Casman

    Casman Well-Known Member

    A scratch is much shorter than an itch, but just as irritating.
     
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  12. ToughCOINS

    ToughCOINS Dealer Member Moderator

    Critiquing myself here . . . I just thought of a reason to remove mention of the "displaced material from which rises to either side of the groove."

    In the case of scratching one's skin with a fingernail, the skin likely departs under the fingernail, and doesn't necessarily rise up either side of the scratch. The same might be said of certain types of digging implements, removing soil as they dig a trough . . .

    A scratch, caused by sliding contact under pressure, is a plowed groove in the surface of an object.
    .
     
  13. Razz

    Razz Critical Thinker

    "Plowed groove", sounds like a vinyl record. Makes me think of Ted Nugent's Cat Scratch Fever! Much more sexy than "incuse line", I must admit.
     
  14. coiniac

    coiniac Member

    So would this 1903-s be a scratch or graffiti? 1903sMorgan.jpg ?
     
  15. ksparrow

    ksparrow Coin Hoarder Supporter

    I believe graffiti is in a sub category of scratches.
     
  16. GDJMSP

    GDJMSP Numismatist Moderator

    Well, the crucial point I was thinking of has been mentioned a couple of times now on page 2, (haven't gotten to page 3 yet). The term I was thinking of is "post strike", in my opinion, that has to be in there somewhere. Why ? A couple of reasons, one of which would be because it defines the time frame. In other words it can occur can any point in the coin's life after it leaves the dies. And reason 2 would be because it eliminates planchet scratches which are fairly common even though only a few are visible post strike. But some are so it needs to be included.
     
    Last edited: Nov 15, 2021
  17. GDJMSP

    GDJMSP Numismatist Moderator

    But not all adjustment marks are pre-existing. There are numerous coins, both US and world, that are known to have had their weight adjusted pre-strike and/or post strike. And some do have raised material along their edges.

    But your point is a valid one so perhaps that part of the wording could be - "post strike, and not part of the minting process".

    Granted, it's going to add to the length of the definition but it is clear and I would say is required in order for the definition to be concise.
     
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  18. ToughCOINS

    ToughCOINS Dealer Member Moderator

    I've since backed off of trying to define scratch in the context of coinage, and focus on the meaning as more generally applied.

    Extended definitions as to types of scratches with regard to coinage can easily be made once it is understood what a scratch is and what it is not.
     
    Insider likes this.
  19. GDJMSP

    GDJMSP Numismatist Moderator

    That's the whole purpose of the thread though.

    The dictionary is full of those. Problem is numismatic definitions for all kinds of words are entirely different than ordinary usage, even specific to coinage.

    Hmmm - OK, let's try this. A grooved line of indeterminate shape and dimension on the the surface of a coin caused by any foreign object that occurs post strike and is not part of the minting process.
     
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  20. ToughCOINS

    ToughCOINS Dealer Member Moderator

    This process of refinement is tedious, but productive. In the context of coinage then, I submit the following:

    A scratch, caused by sliding contact under pressure, is a groove plowed in the surface of a coin after it has been minted.
    .
     
    Insider likes this.
  21. ToughCOINS

    ToughCOINS Dealer Member Moderator

    Okay, I have an idea . . . give me 30 minutes, and I'll put something entirely different together.
     
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