Legal? Owning Counterfiet Coins

There's a big difference between doing the right thing morally/ethically and doing the right thing lawfully.

Now on to your question:

"... how do we today assure that sellers in future generations won't defraud buyers by selling our fake coins, knowingly or unknowingly... A simple notation on a holder simply won't do it."

You can't. All you can do is not defraud anyone yourself.

To show you what I mean, take this example...

You manufacture a nice fake seated dollar, and true to the law, you stamp "COPY" on the reverse. Who's to say that someone won't use your creation and fill in the word "COPY" and pass it of as a real coin?

The point being you can't EVER guarantee future uses of your creations -- you can only control yourself and your actions.

And quite frankly, that's the way it should be.

Respectfully...Mike (who truly admires your wanting to save future generations from fraud, but questions where those actions would end and what kind of world we would live in if they were implemented)

 

Log in or Sign up to hide this ad.

I saw the 1807 Draped Bust and thought it was talking about a Large Cent. I didn't catch it was a half. However, when was it made? Laws cannot be retroactive so if it existed prior to the law being enacted, then it grandfathers out but like I said, and I will say it for a third time, selling counterfeits without COPY stamped on them is being done and peeps are not getting into trouble for it but that doesn't mean it is LEGAL! The laws are clear and to the point so it's no different than me doing a hundred going down the freeway, the laws are clear, I broke them, but I didn't get in trouble because there wasn't anyone enforcing that law at that time, just like there is no one enforcing the unambigious laws concerning counterfeits, but that will change and you can blame Ebay for it.

Maybe you should read the OP's second post:

http://www.cointalk.org/showthread.php?t=42253&page=4#post438615

Ribbit

 

Frog,

Your talking in circles trying to prove something which you have no idea about. Please stop.

First, there were no legal tender examples in my list -- you were wrong. Now they're OK if they were manufactured before the HPA, but then you go on to say it is illegal to sell them without the word COPY on them. Which is it? You can't have it both ways.

Second, I did read the OPs second post, and I have copied it below:

"There are some very interesting post on this subject and would like to thank all for your thoughts. Now, lets say that you had a nice lot Morgans or whatever the coin and all were nice copies/rep key dates but with no stamp on them ..but a stamp is provided. Would you stamp them or keep them as they are? There are folks out there that collect coins such as these..would you seek them out for possible sale of coins and stamp? Would you pass these on to someone else (buyer) and be confident the coins are in good hands?"

Please show me where importation was brought up in this post. Or even better, just stop trying to prove yourself right on a topic which wasn't questioned by anyone except yourself.

Listen, Frog, I like you man, but you're talking out of your rear end on this one...Mike

p.s. It is my understanding that laws can absolutely be retroactive provided the actions that are legal (or illegeal) are taking place in the present. To wit, there's nothing wrong with a law saying any coin made prior to 1972 that wasn't stamped as a copy is illegal to sell without a COPY stamp. However, you can't go back and say the act of manufacture in 1972 was illegal (which is known as an "ex post facto" law, and prohibited in federal law by Article I, Section 9 of the U.S. Constitution).

p.p.s. There's a huge difference between YOUR inpterpretation of the HPA and the example you cited on the speed limit. The difference is that every day people are cited for breaking the speed limits. Can you produce even a SINGLE example of someone selling a counterfeit advertised as such without the word COPY on it and being prosecuted? Please find one before trying to draw that parallel again.

 

You quoted the wrong post.

Ribbit

 

You are mixing apples and oranges. Ex Post Facto means retroactive and the constitution is clear on that matter and the US Supreme Court has upheld it on numerous occasions.

While a law can say counterfeits cannot be sold unless they are stamped with the words COPY on them, it doesn't matter when the counterfeit is made, but they cannot enact a law saying it's illegal to own counterfeits without the word COPY on them, since that would be considered Ex Post Facto, since it would include coins already owned. They can make us mark them to sell them, but not to own if they are already in our possession and they lawfully allow counterfeits to be owned.

Now, the question is, can they make it illegal to own counterfeits? I think they can but the uproar that would ensue would prevent it from occurring.

Ribbit

 

p.p.p.s. in the USA it is not how the laws are written by lawmakers, but rather how the courts interpret them (i.e. caselaw) that really matters. That's why it is always a slippery slope when an otherwise intelligent person tries to read laws and interpret what's legal and illegal -- it doesn't take into account how the courts interpret them.

 

I saw that, but that wasn't the post you linked to, and again, nobody asked about their being imported other than you, and more to the point everyone agrees that importation is illegal. That wasn't the issue/question.

 

I agree with you on that.

Ribbit

 

Toad, You have no idea whatsoever what you're talking about, and I'm done arguing with you. Please call a lawyer and have them explain the concept of ex post facto to you, and ask him/her if it was legal to posses marijuana or cocaine after they were made illegal (even if purchased prior to the law being enacted) ...Mike

 

It originally wasn't part of the question but it has everything to do with it and anytime someone asks if it's legal to sell an unmarked counterfeit, the importation disclaimer should always be included. I don't think anyone would want to find out someone went to jail over their advice when the advice wasn't necessarily faulty, it was the person that asked the question that didn't include all relevant details.

Is it legal to sell an unmarked counterfeit? Yes, as long as you didn't import it to resell it. :thumb:

Ribbit

 

An ex post facto law (from the Latin for "after the fact") or retroactive law, is a law that retroactively changes the legal consequences of acts committed or the legal status of facts and relationships that existed prior to the enactment of the law.

I believe I know what it means, considering I've spent many years researching caselaw.

Ribbit

 

Clearly, you haven't spent enough time in your research, as you have a woefully incorrect undertsanding of ex post facto, or you wouldn't have ever said this (bold emphasis mine)...

"While a law can say counterfeits cannot be sold unless they are stamped with the words COPY on them, it doesn't matter when the counterfeit is made, but they cannot enact a law saying it's illegal to own counterfeits without the word COPY on them, since that would be considered Ex Post Facto, since it would include coins already owned. They can make us mark them to sell them, but not to own if they are already in our possession and they lawfully allow counterfeits to be owned."

...and quoting wikipedia won't do anything to change my mind on that....Mike (who is now really done)

 

You are referring to items which are known as CONSUMABLES, therefore, a bad example to use! Try handguns? How about a law forbidding ownership of handguns without a built in safety? Rut-roh! That would be an ex post facto law, considering the laws that existed prior to it, made the handguns lawful to own.

While they can make a law making it illegal to manufacture handguns without a built in safety, they cannot make ownership of them illegal, without making it illegal to own any handgun.

Ribbit

Ps: One additional piece I left off above and at the end:

Let's say they did pass such a law and, of course, it doesn't affect the handgun you already own so you can continue to possess it lawfully. Could they make it illegal to sell hanguns without the built in safety device? That's an interesting scenario because if they did, you could never sell your gun. However, if they made it unlawful to sell without an attachable safety device, then you could still sell it by buying a trigger lock and including it with the gun when you sell it.

That's how it works! While they can say no more can be manufactured, they cannot say you cannot sell yours without giving you a way you can or it becomes an ex post facto law. That is, unless they ban the ownership & sale of all hand guns, which then you will be breaking the law by retaining the gun you possess, which now comes full circle to the poor examples of Marijuana and Cocaine you used in the beginning. :goof:

 

What you just quoted me on is right on money. So, what do you not understand about ex post facto?

Ribbit

Ps: Ownership and the right to sell unbarred, are two different things. You can own something and the government will say they won't tax it but when you go to sell it and they tax the sale, did the government lie? Nope! They can govern aspects of selling counterfeits that you own and are not marked COPY and force you to mark them when you go to sell them, even though you owned them lawfully and they were not marked COPY. Nothing ex post facto about that.

Ribbit

 

I'll answer your question. You can't know that someone won't sell them fraudulently in the future. You can't know that someone won't fraudulently sel your genuine coins in the future either. Shall we permanently stamp GENUINE, and the grade, and any variety ID into your real coins to keep them from possibly being misrepresented in the future? Slabbing won't help. As you say a simple notation on a holder won't do it. So lets permanently engrave them on all your coins in nice big letters so they can't be altered to remove them. After all it can't devalue them because the coin is still what it always was.

Technically, under 18 Sec 489, yes.

I disagree, if there is no law prohibiting my action then I should be allowed to do it. If society disagrees then new laws are written to cover it. One way they use to get around this is that many laws today a vaguely written so that they may be "stretched" to cover circumstances which they may not at first appear to cover.

Actually in that case you will probably also find a non-specific law that covers such a circumstance. If it happens there isn't a law that covers it then sorry but reading a paper while driving IS legal. Should it be? No, but until a law is passed to cover it, a person who does, even if he has an accident and injures or kills someone should not be able to be charged with an offense. (Actually they would be charged under one of those blanket laws on the grounds of negligence in not maintaining control of their vehicle.)

Actually several of the later pieces ARE copies of legal tender coins and do fall under the Code. Also the code does not require that the coins have to be current legal tender or even ever legal tender, just that they were issued for use as money. (A coin doesn't have to be legal tender to have been issued for use as money. Case in point half cents and large cents were issued a money but were not legal tender when they were issued.)

 

After reading through this thread, I've come to the conclusion that all coin collectors are lawyers (or vice versa)... my head is spinning! I have this vision of a coutroom full of attorneys... pro and con arguements flying back and forth, the judge pounding the gavel, dozen of unmarked counterfeit (forgeries?) spilling onto the floor... charts, graphs, 20X photos, obscure laws being cited... the unlucky seller in an orange jumpsuit, surrounded by armed guards. That's it... I'm stamping my forgeries right now!

 

Suggestion . . . .

Why don't we take the legal issue and discuss it in the General Discussion Forum? This has gone beyond normal coin discussion but I think it deserves to be argued by both sides. So I will start a thread there and I'm going to include a Poll to see how everyone feels about the subject.

Ribbit

Ps: Here is the thread:

http://www.cointalk.org/showthread.php?t=42387