Legal? Owning Counterfiet Coins

8 USC Chapter 25 section 489: Sec. 489. Making or possessing likeness of coins

Excerpted:

Well said toad. This should end the discussion, but it won't

 

Log in or Sign up to hide this ad.

What's interesting is that section (18 USC Section 489) deals with counterfeiting denominations that are currently legal tender and has nothing to do with the Hobby Protection Act. However, what I find interesting is, as far as I know and with the exception of gold coins, all silver coins are still legal tender. Which means I can pay for a cup of coffee with a Morgan and a few Barber quarters. However, I'm not sure about this so I'd like to hear from others on whether or not this is the case or did congress strip silver coins of their face value? Because if they didn't, 18 USC Section 489 clearly applies to what we've been talking about!

Ribbit

 

Ill buy the stamp for 5 bucks. Really.

 

If you buy it from yeoldstore, can I buy it from your? I have a couple of fake trade dollars that need marking.

 

Why not, sure. I just want to stamp random tokens from the game arcade. :rolling:

 

There are some very interesting post on this subject and would like to thank all for your thoughts. Now, lets say that you had a nice lot Morgans or whatever the coin and all were nice copies/rep key dates but with no stamp on them ..but a stamp is provided. Would you stamp them or keep them as they are? There are folks out there that collect coins such as these..would you seek them out for possible sale of coins and stamp? Would you pass these on to someone else (buyer) and be confident the coins are in good hands?

 

Depends on where you plan on selling them. On Ebay, you can get into trouble, elsewheres, you can leave it up to who you sell it to. I personally don't have a problem with them not being stamped but I also wouldn't have a problem with the laws getting tighter on the subject.

Ribbit

 

I'm not saying that we should knock on doors and force anyone to mark their coins. I am saying that the moral thing we should do with our own fake coins is to mark them as fakes.

It never is "what it once was". You wouldn't be altering a coin; you'd be adding a mark to a simple metal disk that has a reproduction of a coin's design on it. A fake Rolex watch never was a Rolex watch. A fake Morgan was never a Morgan, any more than a photograph of one is. Its only monetary value is the value of the metal it is made of. Marking it as a copy doesn't reduce that value. If you assign a "value" to it as a teaching aid, then the "copy" mark doesn't detract from its educational value.

Need I ask again; how do we today assure that sellers in future generations won't defraud buyers by selling our fake coins, knowingly or unknowingly, when a very simple action would prevent that scenario? A simple notation on a holder simply won't do it. Quoting laws doesn't impress me; I'm talking about personal morals and ethics.

 

If it was legal to keep it the way it is I would.

 

Sure it was, it was a fake or copy which potentially has value as a collectible in its own right. And stamping them defaces it as a collectible the same as stamping GENUINE on a real coin would deface it.

Well Title 18 Chapter 25 Sec 489 definitely answers the question about whether or not they are legal to possess. It doesn't have any weasel words such as "intent to defraud". They are not legal, but the penalty is minor. (I have an older copy of the law that specifies a fine of not more than $100. Of course under the new law the fine could be higher.)

The Sec 304.3 clearly indicates that the Act applies to the manufacturer or the importer of the imitation numismatic item. It does not seem to apply in the same way to someone who simply sells them.

 

Grey area in the law. Kind of like Michigan this year, its legal to sell deer feed, its legal to buy deer feed. BUT, highly illegal to place said feed in an area that is frequented by deer.

 

As long as that person didn't import them. It would be stupid to say that if you can get away with importing them, that it's now lawful for you to sell them. :goof: That's known as INTRODUCTION INTO OR DISTRIBUTION IN COMMERCE. :hammer:

Ribbit

 

Isn't that known as Squirrel Feed?

Ribbit

 

Toad, Read and quote USC all you want, but go to any coin show and ask to see counterfeits for sale and you'll find a bunch. Heck, you can even find them sold by very upstanding dealers, and there are even a group of collectors who collect them. While it may be a violation of the letter of the law (although I'm still not convinced), I have never heard in my 30+ years of collecting of anyone being prosecuted for it provided they sell them as counterfeits (just as GDJMSP said)....Mike

 

Case in point -- Shawn Yancey:

http://www.earlycoppercoins.com/id8.htm

Look for the 1793 S-16 electrotype. Are you suggesting Shawn is breaking the law?

Second case in point -- Heritage:

http://coins.ha.com/common/search_results.php?Ntt=electrotype&Ntk=SI_Titles&N=51+790+231

Are you suggesting Heritage broke the law?

Moral of the story - you can't read the laws and pretend to understand their application. One needs to understand how the law is enforced and the caselaw surrounding the USC before making blanket statements as you have.

Respectfully...Mike

 

Actually, you're wrong again... Here's what was originally asked:

Is it lawfully to own these?..Can these be legally sold as such

So the correct answer is yes it is lawful to own them, and yes, in practice, they can be legally sold as such.

However, as you point out and as I understand the law, importing them is illegal as is manufacture without the word copy -- however the OP wasn't asking about either of those two possibilities. He was asking about ownership and selling, not importation and manufacture.

Respectfully...Mike

 

First, on your second post links, not a single one of those are still "Legal Tender" so they don't fall under the 18 USC statutes.

Second, I don't personally have anything against them not being marked and none of the ones I have are and I don't think I'd buy any if they were, but the laws are pretty clear. If you buy counterfeits from China, without COPY stamped on them, NOT REPLICA (READ THE HPA), then you have violated federal law and can get in trouble since that qualifies as Importing.

So the laws are clear, the thing you've brought up is, is it enforced? Answer - pretty much . . . Nope! In another thread we've discussed "Illegal Coins" which are coins that were minted but never authorized for circulation and how they could be confiscated if you ever let anyone know you had one. The thing is, the $10,000 Gold Certificates is a perfect example of currency that was never authorized for "circulation" but peeps openly own them. They could get into trouble but the Feds have never gone after anyone for them, yet they did with the 1933 Double Eagles. Go figure? Political agendas perhaps? :goof:

So like I said, can you buy counterfeits from China and get away with reselling them without COPY stamped on them? Answer - Yup! But is it legal? Answer - Nope! So if you want to take the chance, go for it, I won't and if I buy one from someone that imported them, I will not have broken the law, so I wouldn't get in trouble because it is legal to buy them here without COPY stamped on them, since they weren't imported in the process but the seller can get into trouble. The HPA is clear on that FACT!

Ribbit

Ps: If the the peeps selling them at coin shows imported the counterfeits and it's found out, they will get into trouble. Have you ever asked them where they got them from? :goof:

 

Please, won't someone just answer this very simple question, without referring to some law.

Just because there is no law specifically prohibiting an action doesn't mean that you should be free to do whatever you want when your actions may be detrimental to others.

Just because there is a law specifically requiring an action doesn't mean that you should be free to do whatever you want even though the circumstances don't quit fit you.

There are laws in some places that prohibit using a cell phone while driving. Does that mean that it's perfectly alright to read a newspaper while driving?

There are laws requiring you to drive no faster than a posted limit. Do you, in every case, assure that you drive no faster?

Laws are simply a codification of standard conventions, morals and ethics, designed to assure that one person's actions do not harm another person. Apparently some of you here feel you can pick and chose whatever actions are most beneficial to yourselves, without regard to how someone else may suffer harm.

Okay, if no one has the cahonies to answer the question above the quote, I give up and shall forever remain silent on the subject.

 

I blame Oliver North for the current moral dilemma you just referred to.

Ribbit

 

On none of them being legal tender -- I believe you are wrong. You must have missed the 1807 half @ Heritage, which is still legal tender as far as I know. So again, I ask you, was Heritage breaking the law?

Furthermore, nobody is questioning the legality of importing them (please see my post immediately preceeding your last response). The OP wasn't asking about importing them, but rather owning and selling them. The issue around importation was a tangent you introduced to the discussion and was never asked about by the OP, so please stop bringing it up.

Repsecfully....Mike