Legal? Owning Counterfiet Coins

Here is the area relating to coins.

http://www.greatamericancoincompany...e-US-Hobby-Protection-Act-15USC-2101-c15.html

Jim

 

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I think doug is right. The guy who made the coins is guiltly of making coins without the "copy" stamped on it. But owning and selling are different. Of course I do not plan on testing the waters. I know my dealer has a collection of fakes - and I bet you they do not have copy stamped on most of them. Just my opinion.

 

This is an 1882 CC Morgan that is one of the coins I am talking about that does not have a copy/replica/fake stamp. Note what seems to be wire on neck on obverse. Can I post this coin for sell LEGALLY in the sell section of this forum? Thanks

 

I think so as long as you adverstise it as a fake.

 

Experienced collectors would spot this as a fake. Beginners would not.

What is the weight like on these? Any idea what they might be made of? Is there a significant weight difference from a real one?

 

And that's exactly the problem.

You all seem to conveniently ignoring the fact that, regardless of who buys or sell now, and what is or what is not said about the coins in question, some day in the future - 10, 20, 50, 100 years from now - these coins will again enter the market and become available to collectors who might not be as sophisticated as we are. Sure, you can attach a note to them describing them as fake, but that note can simply be detached and ignored.

The problem should be addressed now, not put off for someone in the future. It's not the same, but it makes me think of the idea of drilling for more oil to solve the oil dependency problem, and transferring the problem of what to do to future generations 60 years from now when it finally does run out.

I asked once before, and didn't get a real answer, how does marking a counterfeit as such destroy its value?

 

Yes, I agree. Anyone who sells copies like these should mark them permanently as such, because eventually they may find their way back into the numismatic pool. Whether required by law or not, I think it's the right thing to do. Congrats to 'Yeoldstore' for intending to do just that! The Chinese have made so many of these over the years that I really do not think they have any value as 'collectible counterfeits.'

 

I noticed in the HPA that marking the counterfeit on the edge does not qualify, which is interesting they went down that road, but if it were sufficient, I would think that would be acceptable by counterfeit collectors. The problem, in my opinion, is when you mark the surface, you take away from the reality of the coin and it is no longer similar to the real deal but rather, just a hunk of metal at that point. I wish Hobo was around to address this, since he's an avid counterfeit collector and could explain this much better than I can.

I know that I would not want to mark the surface of my counterfeits but I wouldn't mind making a mark on the edge so they would never be confused with the real deal. :thumb:

Ribbit

 

The feds could easily prove when it was made by using known counterfeits as an example. For instance, the infamous Spitting Liberty Dollars should be known when they are manufactured, along with others. The newer counterfeits are clearly an after-the-fact counterfeit and proving they are one of the newer counterfeits wouldn't be hard to prove for the feds, which I believe this to be one of the newer ones.

The law was enacted in 1973, that was 35 years ago and proving the newer counterfeits were made after 1973 would be extremely easy for the feds to prove. However, I didn't say they are illegal to own. What is illegal is to import them into the United States without the word COPY on them, so for all the peeps that are buying them from China, they are violating the law. Everyone needs to understand the Importation Clause in the HPA isn't about the one sending it, it's for the one receiving it. The Chinese are EXPORTING, not IMPORTING, the buyers are the ones IMPORTING and the HPA clearly applies to them and it applies regardless of when the coin was manufactured or who the individual is:

(h) Person means any individual, group, association, partnership, or any other business entity.

Read the HPA carefully to understand this is a FACT! And since 911, don't think the government isn't spying on your mail. Now, more than any time in our history, they are spying on us in every aspect of our lives as possible, but that's because they fear us and rightly so. So they can easily find out he received those from China recently, without COPY stamped on them, and can prosecute him for violating the HPA. I do not have the resources to do this but they sure do and can, if he ever does anything to pee them off.

Actually, the intent to defraud is actually part of another law, which involves the U.S. Mails and has nothing to do with the manufacturing or importaion of counterfeits. The word FRAUD is not anywhere within this law but fraud is the basis for the law. But what does this law actually say:

The manufacture in the United States, or the importation into the United States, for introduction into or distribution in commerce of any imitation numismatic item which is not plainly and permanently marked “copy”, is unlawful and is an unfair or deceptive act or practice in commerce under the Federal Trade Commission Act.

That fully backs me up on what I've said.

What I understand is this law came about because of a lawmaker getting swindled over the early 1970's California Gold Fractionals that he bought, thinking they were real and the law wasn't properly thought out to deal with the problems we face today and even then, but it was a start and it's overdue for being expanded, as many laws are.

Ribbit

 

With your answer though, you are saying once they are in your possession, whether lawful or not, it is legal to sell them. No it is not! Read the law again Doug! It says:

is unlawful and is an unfair or deceptive act or practice in commerce under the Federal Trade Commission Act.

So how you got the coins has EVERYTHING to do with whether or not it is legal. This is one part of the HPA that needs revision to make it illegal to sell them without COPY on them, no matter how or when you received them.

Ribbit

Ps: A Federal Judge could even interpret that to include selling ones that are not marked COPY and were made prior to the HPA enactment, even with full disclosure. The HPA doesn't address that so that is left to personal interpretaion as to intent of the law. This really needs to be addressed, as do so many existing laws.

Pps: Just for the record, there is a difference between getting away with selling them and wether it is illegal to sell them. Can they get away with it? Probably! Is it illegal to sell them, after they are imported? Without a doubt, YES!

 

Hey guys1 Theyre from China. Even if the coins were claimed to be real, One would think they were fake just by the point of origin.

 

Yes, we get that. And the guy that just bought it got that. But it's in the US now and more than likely will be on the market again some day and somebody may try to pass it off as a real one, without having the stamp on it.

I hate all these replicas and I hate the people making them. It does nothing but hurt the hobby.

 

This still (I say again) doesn't address future generations that handle the coin. If you own a coin and know it's fake, and tell everyone it's a fake, that's fine. However, some day you will no longer be here on earth. Some relative or descendent of yours will likely come into possession of the coin. They may or may not know its provenance and may likely assume it's genuine. Would they be justified in selling it, thinking it's genuine, to another person who assumes it to be genuine? And would that person then be justified in passing the coins on to someone else?

The point is, you may know what the coin is, but others who come into its possession might not have the same knowledge. Are you secure in knowing that your (in)action today may cause harm to an innocent party in the future?

I'm sure that if you purchased a rare coin today with all assurances that it is genuine, you'd be quite put out to later find that it's phony. Recently a 1909-SVDB slabbed cent was found to be fake, but only because a second coin with identical wear markings just happened to be presented for certification. Separately they were considered genuine, together they were shown to be fakes. The owners of each of these will probably sell them as real.

Since you're done discussing this I don't expect an answer but I still haven't been told how marking a counterfeit coin as a copy destroys its value. Or more importantly, how not marking them is a benefit to the hobby and future collectors.

Anybody else have the answers?

 

Where did you hear about the fake S-VDB's, David? I'd like to know more about them. thanks.

 

At coin shows all the time I see books on just about every and any thing to do with coins. Now this subject would be a great one for one of those book writters. "Counterfeits, Fakes and Copies". Such a book would have all sorts of info on where they were possibly made, how much they sell for, who to sell to so you don't get caught, how to make your own, flea markets where now being sold, how to cover those "COPY" words on the back, names of fake grading services to have your fakes graded, locations where sold on corners.
Such a book would have a Red cover, highest prices and another one with a Blue cover, lowest prices. Hard cover and soft cover versions would be a necessity. Wonder if that would infringe on someone's copy rights?

 

What you are not understanding Doug, is there is a major difference between 18 USC and 15 USC:

15 USC is Commerce & Trade

18 USC is Crimes & Criminal Punishment

The two are not one-in-the-same and 18 USC is where they define punishment for crimes defined in other US Codes, like 15 USC. So the Hobby Protection Act, which is in 15 USC, clearly states that it is ILLEGAL to IMPORT unmarked counterfeits into the United States, which means it is ILLEGAL to sell them after IMPORTING unmarked counterfeits without marking them first, and 18 USC defines the punishment.

Ribbit

Ps: I will say it again, it is without doubt that you can get away with it but the original question was, is it legal and since the coins in question were imported, the correct answer is NO!

Pps: Another thing you left off is the title of Chapter 25:

CHAPTER 25 - COUNTERFEITING AND FORGERY

I don't see the words "Hobby Protection Act" in that?

 

What about 18 USC Chapter 25 section 489:

Sec. 489. Making or possessing likeness of coins

-STATUTE-
Whoever, within the United States, makes or brings therein from
any foreign country, or possesses with intent to sell, give away,
or in any other manner uses the same, except under authority of the
Secretary of the Treasury or other proper officer of the United
States, any token, disk, or device in the likeness or similitude as
to design, color, or the inscription thereon of any of the coins of
the United States or of any foreign country issued as money, either
under the authority of the United States or under the authority of
any foreign government shall be fined under this title.

Ribbit