Learning to Grade: Looking at a ton of coins of EBAY

I disagree. They are entertaining and do help a little. Not a substitute for seeing the real deal though.

 

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Sure, I like a grain or two of salt to liven up the taste of something. But seriously, I have learned a bit.

 

He’s probably referring to the great many GTG threads which feature graded coins in which the poster does not necessarily agree with the grade. They are fun, but I agree that they are not the best tool for learning how to grade. You really need to know how to spot and overlook TPG inconsistencies.

 

That's really what I was saying. They are by no means definitive and there is a lot of inherent bias in public internet forum grading. There's always the perception that people that grade lower consistently are better graders which isn't true and no one wants to be the high guess. It's also at the mercy of picture quality and knowing what to ignore from over magnification. There are also some who just always try to look for faults with the TPG grading just so they can say it was wrong or knock them.

It is what it is, and they certainly can have some good information if you can weed out the fluff.

 

I like GTG as much as the next. I like the different answers from folks I trust.
Getting photos through slabs, can be, well, extremely misleading.
Going back to the thoughts of "grading from photos is a fools game"
not sure who said it first.
It is very easy to mute field chatter, bag marks, etc in photos.
The grader is at the mercy of the author.
An in hand inspection is the only true way to grade a coin, Honestly even a slab can get in the way.
Raw coins and folks to help you with your decisions as a beginner is the best way.
Gtg can be helpful, and fun, but the photos aren't always accurate. There are very few here that can present a coin correctly. I am not one of them, ok maybe every once in a while I get them detailed enough, still learning the trade.

 

the catch 22 with GTGs is if your pictures are bad then it's a pointless endeavor, but if your pictures are great the coin gets nitpicked to death. I've seen sure fire no brainer 66+ on a bad day coins get guesses of 62.

 

Especially with gold where people will use the same standard as silver or a modern

 

I agree it is fun learning. I agree not every cac'ed coin is in my taste or do I agree with the sticker. BUT if I was learning to grade (which I still am) then I might look at some of those coins and thing what I am missing. I do not think they have lost their standards - but are just human and do make mistakes at times.

 

Exactly this. If someone doesn’t agree they should be trying to learn and figure out what the TPG or CAC is seeing that they aren’t, not just assuming they got it wrong. Their miss rate is very low and it’s more likely the viewer is missing something or the picture just isn’t that good.

 

Being able to grade is a general art. If you can tell if any US coin VF, you can tell if any world coin is VF. Micro-grading further requires more study, but lessons from grading US coins generally carry over to modern world coins. The physics of striking coins and wear are all the same.

 

I agree. But it still seems like the emphasis was looking for particular features on US coins. At least that is how it came across to me.

 

The GTG threads have taught me a lot in what to look for in grading. Do they teach me the finer points? Not necessarily. Coins shows/clubs/shops do that when I talk to experts who know what they are talking about.

Being exactly right with the slab does not mean one is superior grader. It just means that you agreed with that particular grader on that particular day at that particular time. I think being within one division of the grade is quite good since even the TPGs often disagree with themselves about what differentiates a coin between grade divisions. (Example, a coin is graded VF-30, so guesses between VF-25 and VF-35 are permissible.) The forums are usually honed into that range. This generally carries over to MS coins (some graded MS-64 coins are MS-65 and vice versa), but far less often and with more consequence in being wrong. I have found forum grading to be much more precise for MS coins (more people agree on a specific grade) as the stigma for being exactly right is so much higher.

The US and Canada are pretty much the only countries that do micro-grading, so emphasis on one or both of these areas is to be expected. Since most of the students in those classes are collectors of US coins, then time is best allocated catering to their interests.

For the finer points such as high points and strike characteristics, yes, they only apply to US coins. But learning how to detect luster breaks applies to all coins. As for the use of LIBERTY as a diagnostic, that is just grading one area. If you look at the overall wear of the coin (say for VF about 50% of the details are still there and no luster is present), you can apply that to any series.

If you give me a 1789 2 reales and ask for a grade, I can tell you it is a certain level, such as VF. But if you ask me if it is VF-30 or 35, I could not say, as that is series-specific knowledge.

 

Go to a coin show or your LCH.

Look at a zillion coins.

The more the better.

Buy and read books.

 

Ok, looking at major numbers of coins on HA. Thank you @IBetASilverDollar for the idea.

 

You’d be hard pressed to claim that CAC doesn’t know what it’s doing. But like the OP, I’ve seen stickered coins where I couldn’t see what the big deal was.

 

Been seeing a few like that on HA and people are still biting on them. CAC seems to be some assurance but not insurance to blindly bid on crap.

 

Grading is intuitive.........you've either got the ability, or you don't. It's personal and proper, and if you fail to experience coins in hand you loose. It's really a 'no brainer'. A copy of the ANA guide of how to grade coins is elementary. Whether or not you can carry on after that is elemental...........

 

The issue with CAC is that they early on developed a reputation for only stickering coins that were premium for the grade. But this was an unintentional result that was further exaggerated by inconsistencies of grading by PCGS and NGC. The only thing that a CAC sticker was ever meant to convey is that they agreed with the assigned grade, not that it was a premium example. I’ve never understood the CAC premium; if people knew how to grade, there would be none.

 

Just to be clear, do you mean (a) if the TPGs knew how to grade or (b) if everyone did, in which case there would be no need for slabbing. If the first, then that argues for a continuous 1-70 point system, since they're human after all.
If the latter, then sure that would be great, if we could all be in one big room trading honestly without constraints like time, travel etc. As much as I dislike holders, they offer a response to the need for standards, and CAC/ John Albanese (does he have a staff now? - first I've heard of CAC as a 'they') is apparently worth the premium to mid- & high-end collectors for the peace of mind.

 

I don't know how many CT members check out Gerry Fortin's site, but his daily blog addressed this issue morning. I had taken the liberty of forwarding Kirkuleez's post in order to get his feedback. For anyone not involved in Liberty Seated coinage, Mr. Fortin is the foremost expert on seated dime varieties, and it is his initial F that heads the variety code.
I hope that this will help to move the conversation forward.
Here is his reply:

I'll start my response with expressing the utmost respect for John Albanese and his in-depth grading knowledge. John is the ultimate expert for United States gold. John has inspected multi thousand coins in his numismatic career and has an insight that few mortals possess. Consider this fact when discussing CAC on message boards in light of your own grading experience on all United States copper, silver and gold denominations.
CAC resolved a key numismatic hobby issue that was spinning out of control: grade inflation. The TPGs are not benevolent organizations. Rather they are businesses measured on year to year revenue and profit growth. The grading services must devise methods to increase the number of coins graded along with ramping grading fees and other "service" fees. This is why the market is buried in "custom" labels and special "signature" labels for modern coins. In the mid 2000s, the grading services become loose towards increasing volume and something had to be done. I remember Laura Sperber (Legend Numismatics) being one of the most vocal dealers concerning grade inflation and the potential long term impact on the hobby.
John Albanese stepped in and established CAC as a vehicle to identify those coins that were accurately graded and in the top 20% of the distribution at the assigned grade level. The top 20% of the distribution means those coins that are choice for the grade and in some cases, may overlap the distribution of the next higher grade. If the "price guides" provide pricing for a properly graded "average coin" for the grade (50th percentile), then CAC approved coins should trade at a premium since CAC approval coins are superior to the "average coin".