Message:

<p>[QUOTE=&quot;RonSanderson, post: 24878075, member: 77413&quot;]Help me out with Early Die State compared to Late Die State.</p><p><br /></p><p>Luster apparently is tied to die wear.</p><p><br /></p><p>To review: As a coin is struck the metal is pushed from the fields up into the devices. That is, the high points of the dies strike the planchet first, forcing the metal to move toward the voids in the die. This creates flow lines in the die as this occurs repeatedly. These flow lines, in turn, become part of the pattern stamped into the coin, so later die states have more, deeper flow lines than early die states.</p><p><br /></p><p>Now, I think I am out of tune with the market. Luster&#039;s OK, I guess, but I really want to see all the details on the coin as designed. I gravitate towards sharply struck coins from fresh dies.</p><p><br /></p><p>However, I suspect these just don&#039;t have the luster of coins struck with a worn die, with less crisp details, but more surface irregularities to scatter the light.</p><p><br /></p><p>This is where I have a theory. One sign of cleaning is scratches running parallel across the surface, if a rough cloth or a brush was used. This certainly would be harshly cleaned and easy to detect in the right lighting. A sign of less harsh cleaning would be the flattening of the fine structure of the surface due to pressure applied during cleaning.</p><p><br /></p><p>This is where I think I&#039;m getting punished.</p><p><br /></p><p>This is the surface of a Standing Liberty that was called Cleaned. This picture shows the original fine structure from the die. There are some faint lines that run &quot;under&quot; the stars and stop at the wing. There is also a fine pebbling and a few irregular meandering streaks. Other lighting angles confirm that these are integrated into the fine structure and not scrapes or dings. Finally, what is missing are flow lines. For a late die state, you would expect to see radial furrows showing where the silver was pushed from the edge to the middle to fill out the eagle that dominates this side of the coin.</p><p>[ATTACH=full]1597220[/ATTACH]</p><p><br /></p><p>For comparison, here is a Mercury dime where the flow lines are just beginning to become apparent.</p><p>[ATTACH=full]1597222[/ATTACH]</p><p><br /></p><p>This dime actually has a satin finish and very little luster. (<a href="https://www.cointalk.com/threads/have-you-ever-wondered-what-luster-looks-like.331518/page-3#post-3333964" class="internalLink ProxyLink" data-proxy-href="https://www.cointalk.com/threads/have-you-ever-wondered-what-luster-looks-like.331518/page-3#post-3333964">More photos.</a>)</p><p><br /></p><p>Lincoln cents are also an area where I tend to be skeptical about cleaning. I feel that early Lincolns (1910-1919) are quickly downgraded to Cleaned if their surfaces lack any cartwheel luster.</p><p><br /></p><p>Here, for example, is a pristine matte proof. It is neither cleaned nor recolored. Yet, its luster is not cartwheel, because there are no radial flow lines on the surface to kick back the light that way. And it is not recolored, even though lesser coins with this coloring so frequently get Questionable Color. (See <a href="https://www.cointalk.com/threads/lets-see-your-newest-acquisitions.158772/page-1367#post-7308045" class="internalLink ProxyLink" data-proxy-href="https://www.cointalk.com/threads/lets-see-your-newest-acquisitions.158772/page-1367#post-7308045">this link</a> for more photos.)</p><p>[ATTACH=full]1597223[/ATTACH]</p><p><br /></p><p>From there, you go to business strikes that don&#039;t quite follow the expected model, either. (<a href="https://www.cointalk.com/threads/lets-see-your-newest-acquisitions.158772/page-1446#post-8377022" class="internalLink ProxyLink" data-proxy-href="https://www.cointalk.com/threads/lets-see-your-newest-acquisitions.158772/page-1446#post-8377022">See more photos</a>.)[ATTACH=full]1597224[/ATTACH]</p><p><br /></p><p>I have seen coins like this called Cleaned, because the cartwheel reflection is missing. That should imply that the surface was damaged through cleaning, yet is is almost the same exact pattern as the matte proof. The same fine pebbled surface is seen to the left of the head in both coins. It may, instead, just mean that the die is still new (as evidenced by the crisp detail) and has few flow lines.</p><p><br /></p><p>The color of the 11-D may also be called Questionable. The alloy mixes of these early cents may have varied more than is generally acknowledged. I have seen 1909-S coins that are quite yellow compared to others, and there seem to be an abundance of coins with this pale red.</p><p><br /></p><p>Of course, expect them to get Details Cleaned or Details Questionable Color. I suspect that&#039;s what the seller of this coin thought, since I bought it ungraded.</p><p><br /></p><p>Just the threat of getting a Details grade is enough to put a damper on the market and keep coins from being graded.[/QUOTE]</p><p><br /></p>

Your name or email address:

Do you already have an account?

• No, create an account now.
• Yes, my password is:
• Forgot your password?

Stay logged in