Learning to Grade and spot cleaned coins

Cleaned coin? wow! I’d love to own many of them! (and I do). Some of these coins slabbed without a grade and labeled cleaned make me laugh and sad at the same time! I've laughed at my own coins labeled cleaned but realize the label has reduced their value as a minted coin only but not as a metal. lol!
With the exception of proof coins stuffed in a slab at birth, I would say all coins are circulated, not uncirculated as labeled by many graders and will display fine scratches, marks, dings and dents. Yes, most of our coins have been carried in a pocket or purse and subjected to minor wear or damage.
My point, if taking a rag to a coin and wiping it clean makes the coin undesirable or less valuable, the hobby has become less of a hobby and more business driven.
IMHO, many are not being honest about grading and their graded treasures! Unless a coin or coins are slabbed at a mint and graded ms70, every coin has some degree of damage. If we’re talking perfection here, even those ms70s are flawed.

 

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That's how an amateur conceives of "uncirculated," paisan, they conceive of it as literally meaning the coin never circulated. Were that the case, who gives a ship? We give a ship because we want the best condition, and "uncirculated" is the term ANA came up with, all on its own, to denote the coins showing circulation wear, or, a lesser state of preservation. And don't look at us, we're just stuck with the term. All to say, "uncirculated" is what's referred to as a "term of art," simply denoting the absence of circulation wear on the face of the coin. That's it. And on cleaning, it's like looking at a piece of glass, for a diamond. Cleaning disturbs the delicate mint flow lines, which give the coin luster, bounce, sparkle, life, call it what you will. It wrecks that and makes it look as dead as a piece of cardboard. You want that hunk of metal, go for it, nobody is telling you your business. Collectors don't want it, and that's not without reason. We collect coins, we don't collect cardboard. That's all.

 

@Jeepfreak81 here's a harshly cleaned coin for you:



...and below an 1835 Bustie from my collection:



Note that she has more luster in hand, the picture makes her look a bit dull.

 

I don't want to say you're wrong, but believe your comment may be confusing for new collectors. I'd generally advise collectors like @Jeepfreak81 to stay away from cleaned coins in the beginning, as most "details" coins didn't receive a straight grade for a very good reason...

 

eddie, there are all levels of collecting and I consider myself a rookie collector at best but a collector just as much as the next guy with years of trying to fill a book with nickels or dimes. My reason for speaking up was not because I don’t know the difference between uncirculated and circulated coins or the difference between a scrap bucket of metal, it’s because the enjoyment of collecting has been lost to the idea that graded coins are the bottom line. Ship ed, I purchased four coins myself last week, two new ms70 silver coins and two 1900 c Indian head one cent coins from a bucket of scrap metal for a couple of bucks. Why buy a couple of garbage cent coins someone might ask, because Im in the hobby to collect what I don’t have and not always the best.

All I have to say about cleaning or cleaned coins is, run back a few posts and let me know which piece from my collection of cardboard you wouldn’t own! Grading my friend has gone from one extreme to the next, it is doing very well, and has taken some of the fun out of gathering chunks of history.

 

mic, my statement wasn’t made to confuse newer collectors but to open a few eyes to the facts that grading is sucking the life out of the hobby. As I mentioned to Eddie, go back to my examples of cleaned and details coins and tell me why a new hobbyist shouldn’t buy a coin like any of my examples and other examples? Sure, some coins have been overly abused and slabbed cleaned but painting all coins as not worthy of a collection is unfair and where grading has dropped us off.

 

That didn't happen. You may have picked the pot, and think that you scored but's let's bring this down to reality. You grabbed an XF coin, No doubt it is brilliant, but after further inspection it has problems....

 

I’ll be honest. I have some details graded coins I particularly love. And I’m an advanced collector and sometimes dealer who really doesn’t keep a lot. This for example an xf details environment damage coin that I find very beautiful. Yes it doesn’t straight grade. But I find the almost ancient coin circam type look incredibly attractive. And for the give or take $1300 i paid for it I see many straight graded examples for many thousands more. That I don’t find nearly as appealing. Collect what you like. But educate yourself on what’s nice. What’s attractive and what’s pure mung

 

Sorry but no, I started my collection not as a collector but as a flipper and never flipped them! lol. It started my interest in owning and buying other coins. Ratings back then wasn’t a concern, not like it is today. I was told back then by several coin collectors at the time that the coins were in great condition and I still believe that now. Not getting a grade and being told my coins were detail cleaned was a shock but learning some look down their nose at coins like these make me wonder where this hobby is heading! Pick the pot? Not sure what that means but they tell me gummy’s are in? Ok, which one would you throw in the junk pail? Make my day!

 

1794 and not gradable due to environmental issues is the part of grading service that seems unreasonable. Why not give it a grade but mention the condition as a detail? I’m with you and accept the grade results but like you say, just to many examples out there with less appeal and more damage. Yes, collect what you like and be happy! Must run, the bees are buzzing! lol.

 

Grade is xf. Details to environmental damage. It probably would grade xf 45 if not for ground time. Honestly this one feels like it spent its ground time in the early 19th century and circulated a bit after being found. To me it’s attractive. Better than a bad colored or lifeless or bad struck straight grade xf 45. That would cost about 5-6k. And a r4 s 61. The 1794 head of 1794 one of my favorite coins

 

sorry I misread your post! lol. I took a moment and when through your registry. You have been at this for some time. You must be proud of it because you have many interesting pieces listed. Buy what you like and be happy!

 

Because they will either lose money or be disappointed with their purchases once they can tell the coins were improperly or harshly cleaned.

 

That's a coin I can clearly tell was harshly cleaned. I guess my confusion on cleaned coins was coming from stuff I'd see slabbed as details cleaned and I wasn't immediately noticing evidence of that. Dipping further complicated it because it may not have any lines, but the luster is gone.

All that being said, I don't give a ship about market grading for the most part. I'd just like to reasonably accurately place my coins in a bracket for grade. Fine, Extra Fine, AU, etc etc. Maybe someday I might fine tune my skills and start using the numerical designations but for now I dont' really care.

Also - Once we've hit MS63 and higher....I again dont' care. For one, because I own very few coins that fit that bill and none that are high end coins. My area of collecting falls mostly in the VF-AU range with some MS/PF stuff here and there.

My collection will likely never see gold or better date silver, at least no time soon.

Lastly - over the weekend I watched some of the PCGS videos on youtube and definetly learned a few things. Related to the conversation that's blossomed in the later parts of this thread, I now understand more why so many coins get marked as no grade/details.

I misunderstood what the "purpose" of TPGs was for originally. It was designed for sight unseen purchases. A way to buy a grade and know you got something you wanted. The problem is, not everyone wants the same thing but the majority would not dispute a properly graded problem free coin.

I too would gladly own many coins (I probably do) that would be labeled as cleaned as long as it's not as bad as that one above, haha. Light signs of cleaning especially on older coins, doesn't bother me.

Oh and also I purchased @physics-fan3.14 book and plan to dive in to that soon.

*note - all references above using the term cleaned are to mean HARSHLY cleaned as opposed to acceptably cleaned (i. e. acetone rinsing)*

 

I have many cleaned coins in my humble collection, Dan, I hear you 100% there. But grading has always been about that. Don’t confuse TPG certified with grading. TPG certified is for their market. They cut corners on quality, they get a reputation, and a reputation sticks. But technically, from a pure technical grading standpoint, there are tons upon tons of cleaned coins that grade very high, and I’m with you there. The TPGs won’t let those trade in their market at their price guide when they find them, because, honestly, they’d be laughed out of business if they did it. But collect them, we all do it. But they don’t get the respect. Think of the luster as the icing on the cake. Doesn’t mean the cake is inedible without it. But they won’t let those trade in their labels, it’s all that means. It’s the kiss of death for their market when they’re cleaned.

 

eddie, your words, my thoughts! I’m not in the hobby to trade or sell like many must do here and really know jack ship about TPG? The Price Gods? lol

 

Yeah, Dan, they took it over, there’s no question. And some, they get real finicky about it, too, detailing for the slightest break in luster, or rub. Before the TPGs, we’ve traded cleaned coins we graded ourselves all the time, just noting where the surface was compromised, deducting for it. We certainly didn’t take the coins off the market, like the TPGs are. But it’s their business, and their trademark, and they have to protect that, and that’s why they won’t let those coins trade. What are you going to do? They’re dealing the game.

 

Thank you! I really hope you find it useful. If you have any questions, please ask!

The terminology can get a bit confusing here. We usually prefer the term "conservation" for widely accepted methods of removing contaminants. "Acceptable cleaning" muddies the waters...

 

Ed, fortunately for me I don’t have to play their game. Nothing is for sale and never has been. My reason for getting my ship graded was to get my ducks in a row! To help those I leave my junk with!