***LEARNING About Matte Proof Lincolns***

I think the diagnostics can be applied to coins that were made specifically for collectors. But the original owner of this coin was an employee at the Philly Mint in 1909, and he might have had access to trial strikes.

At any rate, I am going to check the Internet for pictures of business strike VDBs in MS condition and try to match obverse and reverse dies with my coin. So far I have been checking the PCGS registry site and have found no coin that matches the die characteristics of mine, especially the obverse.

 

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Thats still a nice coin and if you are interested in selling - I am interested in buying it.

Some reverse diagnostics that can be considered. As far as I know the subject has never been closed on the scratch that occurs on many of the VDB Business Strike Reverse in the letter C of Cent. The way I understand it, is that there are currently no VDB MPL's with this scratch that have been authenticated. While it is obvious I think I see that scratch.

You can refer to this post for examples and compare to your coin. http://www.cointalk.com/t167212-2/#post1150438

 

I should have added that I have hundreds of hi res VDB's that I can post. I bet I can match your coin - or at least I would like to try! What obverse characteristic are you seeing that you are finding as unique?

You hit on a point that makes for a great debate. Especially since there apparently is some provenance to employees at the mint with your coin. I am very intrigued.

The records of number of MPL's received in good and bad condition do not reflect what happened to the ones that were "bad". While there was a melting pot in the medal room, does everyone believe that every "bad" MPL was melted? Or is it more likely that they were thrown into the Business strike bin or some other scenario? What about coins struck as proofs that didn't even make it to the coiner?

I am not going to touch on the subject of what happened to the MPL dies after being used for a run of proofs. It is said that in order for it to be a proof - it had to be the intent of the coiner to make it a proof. umm ok lets prove intent. lol

I think that it is a much safer assumption to say that there were many VDB Proofs that were hoarded, stowed/stashed, hidden away sans documentation for many reasons including the nefarious ones.

The TPG's rely heavily on several die diagnostics for authentication. What to me seems strange about that is that what they are essentially saying is that the VDB MPL Obverse Die had deep scratches in it from the first coin struck.

Really? The medal room just haphazardly scratched up the first die to be used on the first issue of a widely anticipated coin pressed specifically for collectors and certain dignitaries and pressed them anyhow? Really?

 

OK, first obverse characteristic-- Lincoln's mouth on my coin appears to be completely open-- not just the lips, but his entire mouth.

 

I think I have located the reverse in the group of pictures you provided, although the rim on my coin is nice and flat and wide. The obverse of the two coins matches up in many respects, but the portrait seems to have some discrepancies, such as Lincoln's mouth (there is a pronounced downside turn on the left side of Lincoln's open mouth on my coin).

 

Collector, even if your story is true and that it your coin wasn't struck from the primary die used to strike the rest of the 1909 VDB proofs, the other characteristics of a proof strike must be there. Mostly, you'd be looking at the overall strike of the coin and the rims/edges of the coin. In looking just at the rims of your coin, it looks like a really nice business strike, not a proof. On a matte proof the rim will be flat all the way around the coin (your coin is close) and then will have a sharp drop off into the fields of the coin below (again yours is close). Here's one of my favorite 1909 VDB proofs for comparison (not my coin):



A super high-res version of the image can be found here:

http://www.pcgs.com/TrueView/Large/06622299.jpg

On your coin the rims just don't match up... look at the rim from about 3 o'clock to around 7 o'clock on the reverse of your coin and compare to the proof I just posted. Your coin just doesn't have the same sharp drop off into the fields of the coin as a proof. Same goes for the top part of the rims on the obverse. At least that is what I'm seeing in the photos provided.

 

It might have something to do with the angle of the lighting

 

Here's a side view of the obverse:

 

I sort of wondered if the lighting was playing tricks, but even in your latest photos I'm still not liking the way the upper part of the obverse rim looks... but then again, something like that could always be post-mint damage too.

Why not end the debate and send it in for professional certification by PCGS or NGC??? Even if it's not a proof, you'd then have it encapsulated to keep it safe for future generations.

Moreover, if you sent it to NGC, you could have their sister-company, NCS conserve the coin and take care of the spot on the upper obverse rim... things like that only get worse and cause further damage over time.

 

It looks like I will be sending it in to NGC.

 

As a reminder, you don't have to join NGC if you're already a member of the ANA. Being a member of the ANA gives you submission privilges to NCS and NGC!!

 

I'm not sure how to go about this. I live in Japan but have a US address that I can use. If I send it as an individual from Japan and have it returned to me here, I would have to pay customs tax (5% of the declared value) to get it back. If I submit it through a local dealer, it will cost approximately $40 and will take up to 4 months to get the coin back. And if I mail it from Japan on my own, I have been told that insurance won't cover coins. And then there is the question of just what sort of value should I declare for this coin?

 

Hello,

Just joined coin talk today after reading this thread about Matte Proof Lincolns.

Brian Wagner

 

Welcome to the fun.

 

Well hello there. Anything to add to this thread? Is your avatar one of your coins? I may bump this thread later.. i have a matte-looking VDB.

 

Thanks everyone,
I found this thread very informative and it motivated me to join.
The avatar is one of the many MPL cents I have handled.
I thank the Penney Lady for all of her contributions to the small cent world.
Brian

 

My MPL set. All photos are out of the slab PCGS TrueView photos.

 

welcome to CT

 

Nice set of Mattes, WL
Like all, especially 1909,1912,1914 and 1915

 

Welcome Brian!!

Brian handled my 1910, 1911, 1915 and 1916 along with a few others I no longer have.