***LEARNING About Matte Proof Lincolns***

Hey Charmy, I noticed in your original post that the mintages for the 1910, 1911, and 1912 are different in my Redbook than what you posted (meanwhile the mintages for 1909 and 1913-1916 match my Redbook exactly). Is there some controversy as to what the final mintages were for some years?

 

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Paul, I got the mintage totals I posted in this thread from Kevin Flynn's 2009 book "Lincoln Cent Matte Proofs" (p. 13) and would lean towards Kevin's figures being more accurate over the Red Book because Kevin has done a great deal of research on how many were struck, delivered from the medal room to the coiner, distributed, as well as survival calculations. I'm really not sure where the Red Book publishers got their figures.

In any event, using either of the references, you can still see how low the mintage of MPL's in each year (1909-1916) truly was.

 

EXCELLENT thread. I just love MPL's.

 

Thanks Penny Lady!

I made this little table showing how the listed mintages have changed over the years.

I am comparing the mintages listed in the 1980 Redbook, the 2010 Redbook (printed in 2009), and Flynn's data who is the ultimate authority. In the far right column is the scarcity rank based on Flynn's data. Whenever the listed mintage for a particular year changed with newer data, I highlighted the old (incorrect) data in pink. It's interesting how much some of the listed mintages have changed over the years (especially the 1911).

In any case, like the Penny Lady said, very low total mintages!

 

Those mintages apply for all coins, but here's a fact: Those mintages are based on how many were originally minted, but that doesn't mean they are all out there.

For example: The 1909 VDB is in 2nd place for lowest mintage, right? Behind the 1916. That was at the time, today, there could be maybe 100 09 VDB's surviving today and maybe a few hundred 1916's. Go figure. Originally the 1916 was the lowest mintage, but today the 09 VDB has the lowest surviving mintage. But still, all MPL's are pretty rare to find, because all have low surviving mintages. The original recorded mintages are still nice to go by, just to have an idea on how many were minted. Today's are just estimated, there's no one out there that can tell us exactly how many are surviving today in any date.

 

CoinGuy, that's an interesting point. It never occurred to me that so many may have been lost, misplaced, or damaged ... but it sort of makes sense since they weren't packaged in a special way by the Mint, just wrapped in tissue paper and put in envelopes.

I did a quick count of all the PCGS and NGC slabbed Matte Proof Lincolns dated 1912 (I picked 1912 just as a sample year) based on their online databases. The most common grade was PR64 (followed closely by PR65, then PR63). The most common color was RB (with BR close behind).

You are completely correct, the total ngc+pcgs slabbed population of 1912 MPLs is only 567, significantly lower than the listed mintage of 2,372. I can't imagine there are that many Matte Proofs out there that aren't slabbed by either NGC or PCGS (since it so hard to sell them without certification). So I am thinking the actual population of MPLs is probably about 25% to 30% of the listed mintages -- making them even rarer that I was originally thinking. Then when you take the subset of those remaining coins that have visual appeal you really do have a rarity.

 

Great post above me. I really liked that 1912 in PR-64, I wanted that coin so bad! But the Penny Lady has a REAL nice 1909 in PR-64 RB with a CAC sticker, I really like that one. I'm already paying off two coins I that'll have to wait. Please post a picture when you receive it, I'd like to see it.

 

Also, remember that PCGS and NGC populations in all liklihood include resubmissions, so the actual number of coins is likely lower than the combined NGC/PCGS pop reports, makng these coins even more rare than your numbers suggest.

 

What do you think about the edge of this cent?

 

Not sure what you're asking but if you're wanting to know if I think that coin is a proof, I can't tell from that photo.

 

That is the edge of a 1909 VDB cent that I have had for decades. I received it from my grandmother, who received it from a friend whose father had worked at the Philly Mint in 1909. So as far as I know, the coin has had 4 owners in the last 102 years.

Anyway, comparing that edge with the edge of a regular 1909 VDB, I see basically what you showed in the photo below-- my grandmother's coin is like the coin on the right, while the regular VDB is like the coin on the left.

 

Post hi res pics of the obverse and reverse. outside rim looks beveled - but the inside rim looks different. I'd like to see more of this coin for sure!!

There are distinct diagnostics for the VDB MPL - while not fool proof there are many of us on here that can authenticate with high resolution images - not guaranteed of course...

Here is a 1916 at a glance looked MPL but on closer inspection - it's just a nice Business Strike. - it stands on edge BTW




BTW MPL fanatics there is a CAC'd '12 65BN on DLRC at 2k inc BP ending in 6 hrs _

I am certain the obverse has more blue than the image depicts.

 

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Would love to see your 1909 VDB that is potentially a proof Sounds like a cool story!

 

I just examined the coin under an ultraviolet loupe and saw that the fields were very grainy, and all lettering on the reverse was grainy as well. I'll try to get some high-resolution pictures of the coin within the next day or two.

 

Cool, but remember that it takes quite a bit more than a grainy or matte like surface texture for a coin to be certified as a genuine matte proof. The squared off rims and polished edges are another indicator. But the coin must also exhibit the die diagnostics which are found on matte proofs. On the 1909 matte proofs (both the VDB and non-VDB), the easiest to see are on the obverse. Look for die polish lines off of Lincoln's nose (small lines that look like scratches but instead of being scratched into the fields of the coin, die polish lines are raised up above the surface of the fields). Also look for the single die polish line that is perpendicular to Lincoln's shoulder pointing straight back towards the left leg of the R in the word LIBERTY.

Here's a photo of the obverse of my 1909 matte proof which shows both of those diagnositcs fairly well.

 

Were the obverse dies the same for the regular 09 and the 09-VDB?

 

The Mint started producing the 1909 VDB proof first before they changed over to producing the 1909 non-VDB proofs. Most sources indicate that all 1909 VDB proofs were struck with the same obverse die and that same die continued to be used in striking most of the 1909 non-VDB proofs. There were a couple of other 1909 dies used on the non-VDBs but those are seen much less frequently.

I have read something about a possible second obverse die being used on the 1909 VDB proofs and if that is true then it was likely used to strike a very small percentage of the original mintage as every genuine 1909 VDB proof I've seen has been struck with the obverse die later used to strike my 1909 non-VDB pictured above. Whenever I buy any matte proof I'd want it to clearly show off the traditional matte proof die diagnostics for the date so that it's proof status would never be questioned. That would be especially true of a 1909 VDB proof.

 

illini, I never get tired of looking at your 1909 matte proof! So beautiful. Where is the best place to find the die diagnostics for each year? Is that in Kevin Flynn's book?

How dangerous is it buying an ungraded MPL? What are the odds this might come back from PCGS as Genuine, Ungradable?

 

@WingedLiberty: I would invest in Kevin Flynn's Blue Book on MPL's, I have one, and it is a GREAT book on MPL's. It has everything you need to learn about MPL's; original mintages, diagnostics, comparison to MPL and business strike (shows you the difference with two pictures). It also has a list of each date of prices realized in auctions, for example a 1915 MPL graded NGC PR-65 RB sold for $1,035 on 9/16/2006 at Heritage. It's a great book for the collector. Even though you can study the book on how to spot MPL's raw, I would still feel safer purchasing a certified one, but that's my personal opinion. And also, it is certainly possible to find a raw MPL, 9 times out of 10 the seller has PROBABLY tried to get it certified, only to come back body-bagged with some kind of problem, etc altered color, cleaning, etc. So he tries to pass it on as a raw, problem-free MPL. But that is not always the case, I've heard stories where people have purchased raw MPL's and they come back as gem proof, so problem-free raw MPL's are out there, just very rare.