Featured Learn About Die Doubling...

Discussion in 'Error Coins' started by jtwax, Jan 21, 2005.

  1. Treashunt

    Treashunt The Other Frank

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  3. Caliwiser

    Caliwiser Member

    Thanks for the reply.
     
  4. Caliwiser

    Caliwiser Member

    I was wondering if this is machine doubling? What type of doubling is this? Sorry for posting many pics. Image41.jpg Image40.jpg Image45.jpg Image44.jpg Image46.jpg Image37.jpg Image36.jpg Image35.jpg Image34.jpg
     
  5. Coindozer29

    Coindozer29 New Member

    Good read, thank you!
     
  6. Nickbender83

    Nickbender83 Member

    20170306_205434.jpg
    I found this what do y'all think?
     
  7. Bobby Ramirez

    Bobby Ramirez Family man

    I have a bicentennial quarter dollar on the reverse side in e pluribus it looks the e is doubled and on the obverse the d mint mark is blurred how much is the coin worth
     
  8. Dv8one

    Dv8one Active Member

    Thanks alot for the post I learned alot
     
  9. LaCointessa

    LaCointessa Well-Known Member

    I learned a whole bunch reading the article about how mint die errors can be created. Thanks for those articles, although a couple are no longer available (getting 404 error). I wanted to try the quiz but also got the same 404 page unavailable response. So I decided to do a self-examination. Here are a few photographs and this student's guestimate about what type of die error mark they may be.

    Photo 1- 1992 cent (top) Date: Singe strike, flat field?
    Mint mark: Double strike, flat field?

    (p.s. As I was posting this, I noticed what appears to be a number "2" floating in there. I went and examined the coin again, checked other photographs and, yep, it sure looks like a 2 - but it is not the same type of '2' in the date).

    IMG_3129.PNG
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    Photo #2 - 1988 cent - Date: Machine doubling (strike) damage?
    Mint mark: Double strike flat field?

    IMG_3121.JPG
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    Photo #3 UNITED: Ejection doubling
    AND hub doubling counter clockwise?
    Monument: Machine strike doubling damage?
    IMG_3122.JPG
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    Photo #4 - ONE = Plating split doubling? No..wait...no...maybe it's single strike flat field?
    IMG_3125.JPG

    I can't wait to hear what you guys think about these die marks and the "floating 2"
     
  10. Jewels2017

    Jewels2017 Active Member

    Well I know this thread is very old and actually I've seen this doubled die chart used all over the place on other different sites but the million dollar question here is does this sample chart actually cover EVERY type of doubled die known to exsist or is this just a general chart for some doubled die varieties ? The reason Im asking this question is because I have actually seen other forms of doubled die coins that don't actually fit the chart ... Infact I've also read an article myself on a site called The lincolncentres and they meantion how the NGCS don't believe that the formative years doubled die variety is a doubled die at all but some other form of error and I can actually understand why they would think that seeing as though how most TRUE DOUBLED DIES actually overlap the image and is almost never in-between the image or around the outside of the image like lincolns hand on the formative years example ... And then to make things even more strange and weird. I think that I might actually stumble across this strange doubled die variety myself from that variety where the doubling is actually on top of lincolns hand instead of inbetween Lincoln's fingers VALIDATING Some of what the NGCS was probably referring to . But I'll allow you to be the judge . IMG_20170808_200819.jpg IMG_20170808_200906.jpg IMG_20170808_200841.jpg
     
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  11. ValpoBeginner

    ValpoBeginner Well Known Supporter

    If it's not a doubled die, what would you call it? Looks like a hub retooling to me.
     
  12. Jewels2017

    Jewels2017 Active Member

    That's a good question ValpoB. But I wouldn't know what to call it . And the crazy thing is . I never paid any attention to any of his other fingers like his thumb and the last finger on his other four and they seem to have doubling as well which is strange .
     
  13. Jewels2017

    Jewels2017 Active Member

    Correction ... His other four fingers seemed to be Doubled as well. And what is Hub retooling ?
     
  14. ValpoBeginner

    ValpoBeginner Well Known Supporter

    Okay here is the way I understand it... It may not be fully accurate... but here goes. And please, anyone, correct me if I'm wrong.

    First a Galvano is made out of clay by the artist. Then one master hub is made by reducing the galvanos large size.....
    the master Hub is the piece of Steel that is the actual size of the coin that is reduced from the galvano. It has the same positive image that the coin will eventually have on its surface and is hardened so that it will be able to make many dies. The master Hub is then pressed into die Steel to make the actual master dies (dies have the reverse or negative of the coins image). The master die is then used to make several working hubs.

    The working hubs are then used to create working dies that actually strike the coins. It is from these working hubs and dies that variations tend to be put into the coins. Some hubs and dies are retooled due to breaks and I believe this is one way that doubled dies and other variations are produced en mass.
     
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  15. halfday40

    halfday40 New Member

    Thank you that was good info and I can see that I have much to learn and stoked to do so. I am a newbie and have had been looking to find a sorce of soild facts/Information to get things understood completely not bits and pices of info and left to guess the missing link s any good books can refer i will get it now thanks again, This is great and thanks to everyone here for the proper guidance to find the answers to my questions thanks ya all, really a great group here
     
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  16. desertgem

    desertgem Senior Errer Collecktor Supporter

    Be aware in your study that there was a large change in the way dies are made in the 1990s. Before that the classical hubbing as describe in several of the articles you have listed, produced 8 classes of true doubled die coin production. Then when they switched to single squeeze production, theoretically this should have eliminated any doubled die coins. But is this method, the single squeeze could 'chatter' during production due to poor design perhaps or problems with the coin press, and this produced a "doubling" of parts of the design. Now in the classical production multiple squeeze die production, this would be called machine doubling damage and no extra value, but for some reason...people and magazines started calling it "doubled die" like the before. So it was added as type 9 doubling. That is why some sources say it is not a doubled die, while others say it is a doubled die. People who deal in coins , and who were afraid perhaps that with no new doubled dies coming along, they would not make as much on coins jumped on the idea that is was valuable and everyone should collect them and pay the price. Classic doubled die collectors like me stop at the 1995 DD on the cent. I do have the 2009 series of "single squeeze" double dies, because they were so many and plentiful, I got boxes containing them for face at the bank. Ebay and others , sellers do not mention the difference, and a large percentage for sale are not DD, wishful thinking by the owners. Good luck ! You can learn a lot by reading old threads also. Jim
     
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  17. ValpoBeginner

    ValpoBeginner Well Known Supporter

    Wow that is really interesting that these coins fetch those kinds of prices. So how do you abbreviate the description using the Wexler method? Say it's a 1996 Nickel with obverse chatter doubling.. 5c 31-O-IX? If it can happen with any die that may chatter, how can you be sure (like in my example) that it was struck by die # 31. If you cannot then you that must be why you see so many variations having the same FS Number. Perhaps I should switch to a different system, like W. Breen's numbered varieties, which I do have some difficulty ID'ing because of all the different numbered ones without pics in the book.

    And then there is the question of.... well what number do you want on your slab, if you should decide to certify a particularity high grade variety. My experience in buying coins is that the CONECA #'s and FS #'s are the most marketable. Basic Examples for this would be 1972 Lincoln cent DDO # 1, or FS-01-1972-101. Does the FS system ever include the stage of wear, for example I now use the CONECA number for most of one's I think I've nailed and then either put the EDS, or LDS. I haven't gotten any of the ones that get even more sprcific.. like stage B wear?

    Wow man I asked... alot... of questions! I did not intend for the burden to be put solely on you.... so if you know any of these answers off hand please just answer one or 2. I didn't realize how much I didn't know about the newer cons... I have been waiting for an answer to the question of why so many 2004D dimes with ear doubling look so different with different lines across the ears in different places.. Now I know. Sorry to go on "chattering" like this for so long. Pun intended, but realized it was Extremely corny, and still wrote it... LOL. BUT....

    on a serious note thanks SO MUCH for revealing this mystery on here. It would bug me and I probably tossed quite a few of those 2004D dimes into the change jar, because they didn't meet the exact criteria shown in the guide. At least two or three that I decided to look up, and didn't measure up exactly, went in to the change jar.... Wish I would have known about the type 9 back then.

    Thanks again.... that post was HUGE for me!
     
  18. dbeck22

    dbeck22 Member

    Amazing article
     
  19. desertgem

    desertgem Senior Errer Collecktor Supporter

    Well, I was too old and traditional to start chasing the single squeeze stuff. I have variable respect for the authors/certifiers that wish to do such, and there has been a huge increase in variety collectors since the 2009 series, but there is little debate over a coin is a Lincoln 72/72 or 1960 D/D DDO, or the 55/55 DDO, so I will collect just up to when the craziness started, but unfortunately now, many classic non-DD lincolns cents are mistakenly ( 1917/17 is a big one) advertised on Ebay as DD, when they are not, they are MD. But since they seem to fit the appearance of most Single squeeze (DD) the owners and buyers are inaccurate in their understanding. Once I went down all of the listed 17/17 DDO and out of 18 listed , 2 were true ( and the price reflected that) so caution is advised. Enjoy whatever you wish to collect, but understand them well. :) Jim
     
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  20. TheFinn

    TheFinn Well-Known Member

    It is very common. At the speeds that modern presses run, thousands can be struck in a matter of minutes. And with all of the vibration, just a slightly loose die can chatter a lot. Then there is die wear that makes the letters appear to be doubled.
     
  21. DoublePenny

    DoublePenny New Member

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