King John's on first, Henry III is on second and who is on third? ID help with some half pennies

I've been on the hunt for a King John for a bit now. I found a half penny on the cheap that I snatched up quickly. One problem; it was part of a lot of 3 and I don't know how to tell the difference between a Henry III and a John! As well, it appears that they only identify 2 of the 3 coins.
The top coin appears to me to be the John under Henry III (from the examples I found on AC search). But again, I don't know how to tell the difference and am hoping someone that does would be willing to help (alms for the poor, sir).

Here is what the auction house had listed and my pics below:
Group comprising: short cross cut half pennies of John, class 5, Samuel; Henry III, class 7, Samuel and Tomas, all at Canterbury. 1.78 grams total. Fine.
Literature
S. 1350A-1356C


Here's a very fun 7 minute show on King John and how he became known as John the worst:



Please post your thoughts, help of course is appreciated, half or whole pennies, coins of King John or Henry III or anything worth half a penny!

 

Log in or Sign up to hide this ad.

Paging @TheRed or @seth77 if one of you might be able to help on this perchance?

 

The only coins that were issued in King John's name were in Ireland - which is what makes an otherwise rather overlooked issue quite collectable.

 

It's a bit tricky with half a coin. John usually has a longer face but that's no help here.

For the top one: according to Rod Blunt's website (https://www.rodblunt.com/short-cross-pennies), there was a Tomas at a few mints but your coin luckily has the end of Canterbury, so he must be that Tomas, who produced: 6d, 7a1, 7a2, 7a3, 7b1, 7b2, 7b3, 7b4.

Henry III's coins are Classes 6c to 8c, so it has to be Henry III. I'm not sure how they ruled out Class 6d, other than by the law of probability.


For the other two: Samuel was only at Canterbury, but covered Richard I, John and Henry III: 4b, 4c, 5a1, 5a2, 5b1, 5b2, 5b3, 5c, 6b2, 6c1, 6c2, 6c3, 7a1, 7a2, 7a3.

Neither has a single crescent on each side for hair, so aren't Class 4, ruling out Richard I. The hair on Class 7 is 2.5 ringlets, and your second coin definitely ends in a full ringlet, which would mean that isn't Class 7 (Henry III). It also seems to have only 2 ringlets, which would make it either Class 5 or early Class 6, which is John.

 

Sorry man, I'm useless with English pennies.

 

WoW! Thanks so much John (ironic name for the thread). And thanks for the resource (saved to favorites).
To recap your much appreciated assessment: the first coin is the Henry III, class 7, Tomas (possibly 6d but unlikely).
And coin 2 is our John, class 5 or early 6, Samuel.
Making coin 3 Henry III, class 7, Samuel.
Did I get that right?

 

Here's the King John coin to get, the Irish penny because it has his name on it. Dealers told me that it's "common," but I had hard time finding a nice one.

Here is the Irish King John Half Penny, the "moon face" coin. This also supposed to be "common." This one has a fair amount of mint luster within the letters which attracted me to it.



Here my English John Penny, issued in the name of Henry II. Spink number is 1352.



As for the cut piece, here is a Henry III half penny. I paid $20 for this, and I don't know if that is "cheap." I was only interested in the historical aspects of the "cut" half penny.

 

Well dealers are sort of correct, the coins are "common" but really nice examples like yours are particularly not common. Even the Irish pennies of King Edward I are somewhat common, but I used to own a Waterford and a Dublin penny that were both about as close to uncirculated as you can get with those. They were beautiful coins and I still kick myself for selling off most of the non-Scottish years ago.

 

Another Dublin King John, 1.44g, 19 mm.