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<p>[QUOTE="EWC3, post: 3183454, member: 93416"]This might appeal to some who have an interest in oral history, or just in strange coincidences. I take it from memory but can fill out reference on request - there are two parallel stories here, one taken from oral history, one from archaeology. But only one conclusion.</p><p><br /></p><p><b>First - the"Oral history"</b></p><p><br /></p><p>The name "Troy" weight standard first appears in written text about 1370 AD. The crucial context, I judge, is that Edward III had just gone bankrupt - due to failing to pay off his war loans to Italian bankers. Bank action triggered what we would call today various "austerity measures". The most famous was a poll tax - triggering the so called peasants revolt of 1382. But here we consider an less known earlier action, the introduction of a light weigh (avoirdupois) pound of 16 Florentine ounces - thus c. 453g. That happened about 1360.</p><p><br /></p><p>Prior to 1360 weights apparently just got called pounds and ounces, in a system many believe to be the Troy one - with a 16 oz pound of c. 497g. So the system itself seemingly already existed in 1360. What was new was just the name, now needed to distinguish it from the rival, newly imposed, and lighter, avoirdupois Italian standard</p><p><br /></p><p>Granted all this - why pick the name "Troy"? Well, in 1360 the most widely read history book held that Britain had been created by an eponymous King Brut, a grandson of Aeneas of Troy, who had conquered the Island from a race of giants. He reputedly founded London, first called "New Troy".</p><p><br /></p><p>A best guess then seems to be the name "Troy" was originally attached to the troy standard because it was popularly believed that Troy was the true and very earliest English standard - originally brought here from Troy itself by this guy Brutus. Robert Graves, who attempted to investigate these sort of myths, dated the fall of Troy very exactly to 1243 BC</p><p><br /></p><p><b>Second: the archaeological history</b></p><p><br /></p><p>The most recent account of English weight standards (by Connor 1987) does not record any English weights prior to the Roman conquest! A lot has happened archaeologically since then.</p><p><br /></p><p>Back at the early 20th century Arthur Evans had claimed that a c. 65g weight standard was in use in ancient Crete, perhaps from about 1700 BC. He claimed it as ultimately coming from Egypt. By 1995 Petruso had extended this finding to a lot of weights found in Crete and as far as the Greek mainland, which constituted a c. 490g standard, split in a simple 16 oz binary fashion. That is to say - into ounces - so the weights Evans had found were 2 ounce weights to a c. 490g pound.</p><p><br /></p><p>Within just a few years, by around 2000, Pare in Germany had linked this finding to a further series of weights - these found in the graves of Bronze Age German warriors, dating perhaps from about 1500 BC onwards. They are the very oldest NW European weights - but seem to be to the same Cretan standard, thus transmitted from Egypt to Crete, thence to the Greek Mainland, and then on to Germany and surrounds during the early Bronze age.</p><p><br /></p><p>Then in 2010 divers found a weight belonging to this series from a wreak - off the south English coast at Salcombe, in Devon.</p><p><br /></p><p>You can see a pic of it it here on twitter (upper piece in the bottom right panel)</p><p><br /></p><p><a href="https://twitter.com/nwilkinbm/status/908015015411765248" target="_blank" class="externalLink ProxyLink" data-proxy-href="https://twitter.com/nwilkinbm/status/908015015411765248" rel="nofollow">https://twitter.com/nwilkinbm/status/908015015411765248</a></p><p><br /></p><p>Linked by style to the German pieces. It weighs 29.8g, in slightly corroded condition. A modern Troy ounce weighs 31.1g. The Salcome wreak is dated to between 1300 and 1200 BC</p><p><br /></p><p>What can we conclude? Well fanciful legend, oral history, apparently held that Troy weight came to England from Troy itself around 1200 BC. Archaeological fact is that something very like it did come to England, and yes - about 1200 BC. There is at present nothing to connect this very ancient weight to the subsequent English Troy system - which apparently was followed in the medieval period. That is to say, not that the idea of a connection is wrong - just that there is more of less a complete lack of any evidence at all.</p><p><br /></p><p>Its very odd.</p><p><br /></p><p>A secondary conclusion which I would draw is this. The Salcombe weight was discovered in 2010, and the tweet I drew attention to is about the only attempt by a modern archaeologist to publish the matter to the general public. And he does not even mention the weight of the item! I feel sure that if this weight had be found and identified in 1918, the matter would have been written up in the Times, and avidly debated in the letter pages by amateur readers.</p><p><br /></p><p>Today, this Cointalk effort is I think the very first bit of writing, anywhere, to publicise the possible implications of this find.</p><p><br /></p><p>All very odd..................</p><p><br /></p><p>Rob T[/QUOTE]</p><p><br /></p>
[QUOTE="EWC3, post: 3183454, member: 93416"]This might appeal to some who have an interest in oral history, or just in strange coincidences. I take it from memory but can fill out reference on request - there are two parallel stories here, one taken from oral history, one from archaeology. But only one conclusion. [B]First - the"Oral history"[/B] The name "Troy" weight standard first appears in written text about 1370 AD. The crucial context, I judge, is that Edward III had just gone bankrupt - due to failing to pay off his war loans to Italian bankers. Bank action triggered what we would call today various "austerity measures". The most famous was a poll tax - triggering the so called peasants revolt of 1382. But here we consider an less known earlier action, the introduction of a light weigh (avoirdupois) pound of 16 Florentine ounces - thus c. 453g. That happened about 1360. Prior to 1360 weights apparently just got called pounds and ounces, in a system many believe to be the Troy one - with a 16 oz pound of c. 497g. So the system itself seemingly already existed in 1360. What was new was just the name, now needed to distinguish it from the rival, newly imposed, and lighter, avoirdupois Italian standard Granted all this - why pick the name "Troy"? Well, in 1360 the most widely read history book held that Britain had been created by an eponymous King Brut, a grandson of Aeneas of Troy, who had conquered the Island from a race of giants. He reputedly founded London, first called "New Troy". A best guess then seems to be the name "Troy" was originally attached to the troy standard because it was popularly believed that Troy was the true and very earliest English standard - originally brought here from Troy itself by this guy Brutus. Robert Graves, who attempted to investigate these sort of myths, dated the fall of Troy very exactly to 1243 BC [B]Second: the archaeological history[/B] The most recent account of English weight standards (by Connor 1987) does not record any English weights prior to the Roman conquest! A lot has happened archaeologically since then. Back at the early 20th century Arthur Evans had claimed that a c. 65g weight standard was in use in ancient Crete, perhaps from about 1700 BC. He claimed it as ultimately coming from Egypt. By 1995 Petruso had extended this finding to a lot of weights found in Crete and as far as the Greek mainland, which constituted a c. 490g standard, split in a simple 16 oz binary fashion. That is to say - into ounces - so the weights Evans had found were 2 ounce weights to a c. 490g pound. Within just a few years, by around 2000, Pare in Germany had linked this finding to a further series of weights - these found in the graves of Bronze Age German warriors, dating perhaps from about 1500 BC onwards. They are the very oldest NW European weights - but seem to be to the same Cretan standard, thus transmitted from Egypt to Crete, thence to the Greek Mainland, and then on to Germany and surrounds during the early Bronze age. Then in 2010 divers found a weight belonging to this series from a wreak - off the south English coast at Salcombe, in Devon. You can see a pic of it it here on twitter (upper piece in the bottom right panel) [url]https://twitter.com/nwilkinbm/status/908015015411765248[/url] Linked by style to the German pieces. It weighs 29.8g, in slightly corroded condition. A modern Troy ounce weighs 31.1g. The Salcome wreak is dated to between 1300 and 1200 BC What can we conclude? Well fanciful legend, oral history, apparently held that Troy weight came to England from Troy itself around 1200 BC. Archaeological fact is that something very like it did come to England, and yes - about 1200 BC. There is at present nothing to connect this very ancient weight to the subsequent English Troy system - which apparently was followed in the medieval period. That is to say, not that the idea of a connection is wrong - just that there is more of less a complete lack of any evidence at all. Its very odd. A secondary conclusion which I would draw is this. The Salcombe weight was discovered in 2010, and the tweet I drew attention to is about the only attempt by a modern archaeologist to publish the matter to the general public. And he does not even mention the weight of the item! I feel sure that if this weight had be found and identified in 1918, the matter would have been written up in the Times, and avidly debated in the letter pages by amateur readers. Today, this Cointalk effort is I think the very first bit of writing, anywhere, to publicise the possible implications of this find. All very odd.................. Rob T[/QUOTE]
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