Great set ! Here some more: There are some small flaws in your transcriptions. For example the "Go" of Gopala you now write as "Ga". To make a "Go" you have to add a vowel modificator. In this case a little McDonalds like "m" on top of the "Ga". Also your "Sri" of "Sri Didda" is now written more or less as "Gi". On my second picture you can see a bit better what "Sri" should look like.
@THCoins ,Yes sorry! Rushing to post... But your first comment on the go/ga I didnt know thank you!I've tried to teach myself the Nagari script,and the basics are ok but I still need some experience on the joint consonant vowel mixes Do you mean this?,or does the m form have to touch the base A? Super coins there...First one is a Bhimagupta a grandson of Didda and hence killed by her, and the second is Sughanda 1 of only 3 queens of Kashmir before Didda and after the Mythical Yashomati who is supposed to have been crowned by Krishna himself. Thanks for posting ,Paul
I am unable to find listings using your spelling of Sangrama. Help here. For those not wishing to go so far as learning Nagari just for these few coins it is quite possible to cheat and recognize each from some little feature. Didda has 'hooks' on each side curving away from the figure. Sangrama has an H just left of the figure. After a while you will want to learn to read the letters but when starting and facing a bagful of pickouts like I did, you do what you have to do. The two shown above seem to be the most commonly seen ones. Both are robust compared to some of the later ones that get a little more crude.
@dougsmit....Yes there are certain ways some symbols of the rulers legends stand out more and make these easier to attribute...But you have to be careful as some are really similar and with abit of wear can look similar.I will form a list of the more common and easier ruler legends with some tips for attributing and post it this week.If you want info on Samgrama type in samgramaraja,but if your looking for coins it's more difficult as most dealers can't differentiate so most don't use the rulers names and simply title them as the infamous Didda Rani there are some up for sale at the moment on ebay using this method.
The second type is showed could be Sugandha, based on the legend. However, the style makes it more likely Sussala. Here a short example of some Aksara variations in Nagari: To complicate things, the characters and vowel modificators vary quite a bit over time and place.
@THCoins ..Thankyou,yes I agree you can also just see the start of the sa next to the su.This is exactly what I was saying to Dougsmit its quite difficult to just attribute on simple markers depending on the ruler of course.If you can please post some more variations they really help! Kind regards Paul
I've been spending some time trying to figure out the lay out and symbols on these coins.I hope this will allow beginners and collectors alike to look at these coins in a different light. I'm going to start with the obverse...Here goes.. These copper coins known as Kaserah or Punchshi normally come it at around 18mm in dia and weigh a hefty 5,5- 6 grams but I feel the flan is a lot smaller than the punch and die and I've never seen one that has accomodated the full design.Hopefully I'll be able to show you what I think was the full design of these coins.The coins I'll be using as examples are from the Utpala and the first Lohara dynasties. Utpala dynasty was a Hindu kingdom which ruled over the Kashmir region, the first ruler being Avanti Varman AD 855 upto the infamous queen Didda Rani in AD 1003 The first Lohara dynasty were Hindu rulers too the first ruler being the nephew of Didda, Samgrama in AD1003 and finshed with Harsa in AD 1101. No one is really sure which side is obverse or reverse and it doesn't have any effect on this research so for ease of explanation I'll stick with the norm but I'll add that some descriptions on the net are the other way around. Obverse Lakshmi (Ardoxsho) the goddess seated with rulers legends left and right... Reverse The ruler, king or queen, standing sacrificing at an alter.................reverse I'll start with a common coin of Didda Rani from the later part of the Utpala dynasty showing us what most coins show,give or take abit, and what most people see... First lets look at the Obverse The arms of the godess have now been replaced left and right of the main body with the legend of the ruler in this instance Sri Didda as seen below. Either side of the head of Lakshmi there is flower/sun symbol.At first I thought this symbolised the sun as I had only seen it to the right of the head and fitted nicely with the painting below but after further study found there are 3 of these and so I'm pretty sure they are lotus flowers.The coin above shows this but quite worn,here are some examples from other coins..I've also noticed that the size of dots can vary a little,the central one being sometimes bigger or the same as those around it.. Next the head..In the picture below we can see her headress adorned with jewels and surrounded with an aura this external form can be seen on the coins here's some examples On these coins Lakshmi is depicted sitting on a lotus stem, right leg folded under and left leg hanging.Here you can see the pink legs, red robes and green lotus stems.The smaller 3rd and 4th photos show the 3 lotus stems quite clearly and bottom right shows another group of stems or a flower?. Continued in next thread
As we look at the coin to the left of the legend there is another flower this is not seen very often as the coins are rarely offset enough. Taking all these factors into consideration I think the die and punch diameter was around 24-25mm. Here's my image of what I feel the coin would have looked like if the flan accomodated this dia. Hope you followed this ok and sorry about my bad drawings but hopefully you get the gist! If people are interested in this I'll post the reverse in a couple of days.For me it had a couple of surprises. Saludos Paul
Have you been able to find any die matches in this series? I have noticed, perhaps because these coins typically sell for $10-$20, they are not studied by die variety. Do you have examples of Indian art from the region and period when this dynasty ruled that have a similar design? The example you showed is modern. I like it, but I wonder if we can get closer to the source. Alex Fishman (dealer) wrote “These remarkable and attractive coins are the descendants of the gold and silver Kushan staters ... the Goddess/King design remained virtually unchanged in the 1300+ years history of this issue.” It would be interesting to know how the design changed over the years. For example, I have a similar Toramana II AE, circa 540-570AD. (That coin has always troubled me because the dealer said “There may be a human head in his hand.”) Rather than just looking at the “lotus flowers” I would be curious to know how these differ from the Kushan and Hunnic prototypes.
Hi Ed, I used the Kushan and the type of coin you've got, the Toramana ,as a base for this research when I post the reverse I will show them as examples of how these coins have become more abstract over the centuries.With the obverse I wanted to keep it simple just showing the full tool design so that people could see in a more modern form what the coins depicted. Paul
Excellent work Paul ! I do disagree with you on the pose of Lakshmi. I believe the evolution of the coin makes it more likely that the legs of Laksmi are in the half-lotus position of yoga. I addition, in the Toramana II types, from which the later Kashmir types derive, She is definitely not sitting on a lotus:
Thanks THCoins!Great lion I've not seen many with that kind of detail! ok so the pose is half lotus I'll go with that but I don't believe the lion form has been continued through to the later dynasties I've not found any coin showing even a more abstract form at 8 oclock on the obverse of these coins ,maybe someone can show me different? So I assume the lion has been phased out over the centuries? Nice set of coins there! I hope Ed sees your post as this answers his question of the progressive design changes over the centuries. Please keep posting here with anything you think might be helpful as it's great to speak with people who've got interest in this series and the more coins we see the more we can learn. Thanks for the feedback. Paul
I think you are correct that the design degenerated over time, likely by repeated copying of older coins. In addition there is the question of the interval between the rule of Toramana II and the earliest named Kashmir types. It is not really clear what happened in de more than 2 centuries in between. I do think that remnants of the older design can be seen in the later types. For example, the triangle that you marked as the right knee of Lakshmi may be all what is left of the lion. In the copying process it did not help that this is usually largely off-flan. What you indicated as the left knee of Lakshmi is actually the remains of what once was her left hand i think. On my last photo you can also see some curved lines behind Lakshmi's left arm. These are the stem of the Lotus, going up to the flower next to her head. This stem disappeared in the evolution of the type. Anthony
To illustrate some related predecessor types: Kushan: And somewhat later from the Gupta Dynasty: The first, Kipunada type, shows Ardochsho enthroned, holding a lotus. The Chandragupta type has Lakshmi sitting on the lotus flower.
Thanks...nice coins...Are they yours? I notice there's no lion, do you think the lion form was introduced around the Toramana era or before?
Thanks to all for your comments they are really appreciated!. The reverse of the coin shows the ruler, be it king or queen,standing and sacrificing at an alter.. Here's the same Didda Rani coin from the previous thread showing the reverse.Next to it there is a Toramana coin,he ruled in the 5th to early 6th century this shows us how theses coins have become more and more abstract over hundreds of years,but giving me the clues necessary to decipher these more abstract forms. First I'll start with the head.You can see from the examples below the ornate headwear. Next to the left of the ruler at 8 and 10 oclock we can see the same two flower forms as on the obverse. On the right of the ruler running from 1 to 3 oclock there is a "Shri" usually only the edge of this is seen, if at all, and the full design is only visible on coins heavily offset to the left.The coin below I've just bought and was VERY important in clarifying not only this but actualy shows the outer edge of the full design with a ring of dots.This has given me a true radius to work from and confirms a diameter of 24-25mm. Continued on next post....
Under the Shri there is the legend either "deva" or "gupta". The centre of the coin shows us the clothes worn.Also left and right of the body there are 2 fish like forms these are in fact the rulers arms and at the bottom 2 spindly legs. If you look at the Toromana coin above you will see at 8 oclock what seems like an octopus shape this is the sacrifice at the alter.The coin on the left below shows a Toramana II. Circa AD 540-570. Æ Stater.The abstract equivalents are next to it.The octopus shape are the flames or something being thrown onto the alter. Continued on next post...
Here's my image of what I feel the coin would have looked like if the flan accomodated this dia. Here they are together. Thats it so far! I hope you've enjoyed the journey and now when you see one of these "hit hard" coins you'll look at them in a different light. Please carry on posting relevant coins! Saludos Paul
Great addition ! With the "Shri"you mean the trident standard the king is holding ? The "Octopus" i'd rather think it is the hand of the king. In the early Toramana type you can see it coming from its sleeve. All the coins i showed are mine. The "Lion seat" also occurs on AV coins issued under Kumaragupta (ca 414-450AD). From these it is inferred that the deity may actually be a mix between Lakshmi and Durga. In this form she also appears in later religious use as "Maha-Lakshmi", the mother-god. (The lion traditionally is associated with Durga. The pot which can be seen next to the deity on my last example is a symbol of wealth and associated with Lakshmi.)
